Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 08 Jul 2014, 16:33

You are an Italian citizen after recognition -- NOT before.

1. You qualify for Italian citizenship if your father or mother was born in Italy and was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth or was born in the United States but is NOW Italian and registered in AIRE. The key word here if your parent was born in the USA is NOW because that parent was not born an Italian citizen but had to be recognized as such.

Below information from the Italian Consulate in Philadelphia. Scroll down to "categories".

http://www.consfiladelfia.esteri.it/NR/ ... uinis7.pdf
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby johnnyonthespot » 10 Jul 2014, 14:43

This is both true and misleading.

You are an Italian citizen (or able to claim such) if your father was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth or, if born on or after January 1, 1948, your mother was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth (making allowances for the fact that the 1948 rule has been successfully challenged in Italian courts numerous times).

Period.

However, for jure sanguinis purposes, you often must first prove that your father/mother was eligible for Italian citizenship by first proving that his/her father was an Italian citizen. In many cases, it is necessary to prove that a grandparent was eligible for Italian citizenship by first proving that a great-grandparent was Italian. And so on.

So, what you are depends upon...
What your father/mother was, which depends upon...
What your grandfather/grandmother was, which depends upon...
What your great-grandfather was, which depends upon...
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 10 Jul 2014, 16:10

Ciao Carmine, I posted that link from the Philly consulate because I'm aware of a situation where an unrecognized woman born in Argentina became a naturalized American citizen before 1992 while her own daughter was a minor. The adult daughter is now claiming that she should be allowed to reclaim the Italian citizenship she lost when her mother became naturalized. I maintain, however, and her consulate also maintains that she never had Italian citizenship in the first place because she and her mother were always unrecognized and they gave up the right to potential recognition when they naturalized.

If this is not correct, why does every consulate give you a form to fill out indicating that your ascendant (particularly direct ascendant) never renounced Italian citizenship? My father (direct ascendant) went to his death unrecognized but when I applied, I had to swear that my father had never given up his Italian citizenship. I'm sure if my father had become naturalized before 1992 and I was a minor at the time, I would not have been qualified for recognition either, much less qualified to "reclaim" a citizenship I never had to begin with. Fortunately my father was born in the United States and NOT in Argentina so he had no need to ever naturalize.

I think the Philly consulate, probably in receiving a number of applications and questions from people with misleading or inaccurate information, is basically clarifying my take on it by wording Category Number 1 the way they have done so on their website.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby mler » 10 Jul 2014, 20:18

Don't be confused by the word "renunciation." Renunciation involves going to the consulate and stating your intention to renounce citizenship. Naturalization is not renunciation, but a naturalization that took place before 1992 resulted in the loss of Italian citizenship.

Why do you assume that a child born to an Italian citizen never had Italian citizenship to begin with?

Were that actually the case, you could not have obtained citizenship from your unrecognized father, because based on your definition, his failure to have his citizenship recognized meant he was not an Italian citizen and could not pass it to you. That would make no sense.

The concept of jure sanguinis is that Italian citizenship is passed from parent to child at birth. I passed Italian citizenship to both my children, but only my son went through the recognition process. My unrecognized daughter was also born Italian but does not enjoy the benefits of that citizenship because she chose not to do so. If at some later date she wishes to apply, it will not be a problem.

BTW, my Italian birth certificate lists both my date of birth and the registration date (the date of my recognition).
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 10 Jul 2014, 21:21

johnnyonthespot wrote:
However, for jure sanguinis purposes, you often must first prove that your father/mother was eligible for Italian citizenship by first proving that his/her father was an Italian citizen. In many cases, it is necessary to prove that a grandparent was eligible for Italian citizenship by first proving that a great-grandparent was Italian. And so on.

So, what you are depends upon...
What your father/mother was, which depends upon...
What your grandfather/grandmother was, which depends upon...
What your great-grandfather was, which depends upon...


Perfect! Yes, I agree. And in this case, the direct ascendant (mother) became naturalized before 1992 and eligibility for Italian citizenship was lost. Therefore the mother was not an Italian citizen and neither was the daughter who is now trying to claim she is eligible to "reclaim" what she never had. It couldn't be any more clear. Grazie.

By the way, I'm glad you're back after being not around for quite some time it seems. Now, I can tell you that back in 4th quarter 2011, I followed your precise advice in preparing a recognition case with an unusual twist for my companion. In fact, your advice regarding the unusual twist was so spot on that the consulate had nothing to say other than, "everything is in order" and my companion was recognized within one month afterwhich time, we returned to Italy together. Again, grazie tanto.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby mler » 10 Jul 2014, 22:31

I think you've misread that post.

The woman you describe can indeed trace her citizenship back to her mother, her grandfather, and her great grandfather. She is thus able to prove she inherited Italian citizenship, a citizenship she lost when she naturalized with her mother.

Another section of the post to which you refer states:

"You are an Italian citizen (or able to claim such) if your father was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth or, if born on or after January 1, 1948, your mother was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth (making allowances for the fact that the 1948 rule has been successfully challenged in Italian courts numerous times)."

It is for this reason that you were considered Italian despite having an unrecognized father, and she was Italian despite having unrecognized ancestors.

To state that citizenship begins with recognition undermines the entire concept of jure sanguinis. Of course one does not obtain the privileges, or incur the obligations, of Italian citizenship until after recognition.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 26 Jul 2014, 11:31

Ciao again, Carmine. While you and I both DO understand who and who is not considered an Italian citizen, now in addition to the Philadelphia Consulate, two more consulates (San Francisco and Los Angeles) are confirming same and advising an applicant, who unfortunately has received mis-information on another website) that "If she doesn't have an Italian birth certificate, she was never Italian and cannot reclaim something she never had". The applicant was not born in Italy and before naturalizing as a US citizen, never took any steps to become recognized so therefore lost her eligibility for recognition. In fact this applicant has been so mis-led that she is now asking if she can simply go to Italy and register to reclaim the citizenship she never had before declaring her intention to do so -- something at least three consulates will not allow her to do.

Again, I must emphasize to all Italian-Americans interested in pursuing Italian citizenship recognition, now that the application fee is at least $300 per person, please try to make sure you are receiving accurate information from whatever source you choose to use before you undertake the process. Here again is the Philadelphia Consulate's stance on who and who is not considered an Italian citizen and when that recognition actually occurs. Scroll down to Categories:
http://www.consfiladelfia.esteri.it/NR/ ... uinis7.pdf
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby johnnyonthespot » 26 Jul 2014, 13:17

jennabet wrote:... now that the application fee is at least $300 per person...


Make that €300 - about $403 at today's exchange rate.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 22 Aug 2014, 14:44

Carmine, thought you might be interested in the latest regarding the applicant who has been denied the ability (from at least three consulates) to reclaim Italian citizenship she never had because she was born in Argentina, never took any steps to become recognized, and then naturalized as an American citizen before 1992.

Apparently the naturalized applicant is so WRONGLY convinced that she was always an Italian citizen even though never recognized as such that she is now simply asking her cousins in Italy to register her in the commune (she never lived there by the way) and wants to know what documents to give them so they can acquire her an Italian birth certificate, which she plans to use at a "reacquisition" appointment with the consulate. The same consulate that has already told her she lost her right to recognition when she became naturalized.

I would like to ask you, Carmine, why did you (and myself) for that matter go through all the trouble of being recognized if we could have simply given our American birth and other vital information to our cousins in Italy so they could register us in their commune and provide us with Italian birth certificates? In fact, they would not even be allowed to do so. I live in Italy and I cannot register my sister's American information in my commune. She must either go through her consulate to become registered as an Italian citizen or she must move to Italy with all of her documents and apply in person. But if the applicant does the same, the first thing she will have to show is her American passport, the same one she obtained through naturalization. The same naturalization that caused the loss of her right to Italian citizenship. Perhaps she thinks the communes are not paying attention to these types of things. I maintain that in fact, they do. Your take?
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 04 Sep 2014, 13:37

Here is the latest quote from the very obviously non-qualified applicant who has been receiving mis-leading information from the "experts" on various websites and who don't hesitate to proclaim that consulate staff are wrong:

"I HATE TO THINK I SPENT THAT MONEY GETTING ALL MY ARGENTINE AND URUGUAYAN APOSTILLES AND TRANSLATIONS FOR NAUGHT".

Yes indeed, receiving misleading information CAN be costly. As I've stated before and am restating now, make sure the information/advice you receive is correct before you spend money preparing documents that will never be accepted by any consulate or even in Italy. And if someone insists on repeatedly telling you that consulate staff are wrong and don't know Italian law, you should probably look elsewhere for the correct advice. If in doubt, always check with your consulate first.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 21 Sep 2014, 18:39

Latest update on the unfortunate mis-information a naturalized applicant has received on another website. Finally, someone has advised this applicant that she has been "sent on a wild goose chase" by the "experts" at that site with the major problem stemming from the fact that she and her mother were never registered in Italy or with any Italian consulate as Italian citizens because they never took any steps to become recognized before their naturalizations took place. The applicant was in fact told this very thing very early in the thread -- but of course, the "experts" took over and that was the end of that. I would advise this applicant that she needs to come here to this website for accurate information. I would also like to express my condolences for the run around she was given but I also feel she was being naieve in allowing herself to be so misled by anonymous people who really have no proof whatsoever of their credibility.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby DRuss » 21 Sep 2014, 21:11

jennabet wrote:Latest update on the unfortunate mis-information a naturalized applicant has received on another website. Finally, someone has advised this applicant that she has been "sent on a wild goose chase" by the "experts" at that site with the major problem stemming from the fact that she and her mother were never registered in Italy or with any Italian consulate as Italian citizens because they never took any steps to become recognized before their naturalizations took place. The applicant was in fact told this very thing very early in the thread -- but of course, the "experts" took over and that was the end of that. I would advise this applicant that she needs to come here to this website for accurate information. I would also like to express my condolences for the run around she was given but I also feel she was being naive in allowing herself to be so misled by anonymous people who really have no proof whatsoever of their credibility.

Finally, something we agree on! :D

I think you're referring to freeforums. That Argentinean lady was given all kinds of ridiculous advice like getting cousins to somehow register her birth in Italy, and starting court cases for the sake of saving a year (the court procedures would take longer, as anyone with real experience knows!). The time she has wasted by following that advice could have been spent in Italy and counting towards the period of residence that she needs for naturalisation.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 23 Sep 2014, 02:38

Exactly. Page after page of misleading info. Totally unnecessary. Due to her naturalization, this Argentinian-American has no case for jures sanguinis and no claim to re-acquire a citizenship she never had. Assuming she does not lose her naturalized American status as a result, she would be entitled to an expedited path to Italian naturalization after living continuously in Italy for three years. To do so she would need an elective residence visa that would allow her to remain for three years but during which time she cannot work. However, if she has been informing consulate officials that they are wrong based on information she's received from the "experts" on another website, she might not find any consulate willing to cooperate even in so far as issuing a visa. An unfortunate set of circumstances made worse by the bad info she was relying on.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby oil.gas » 23 Sep 2014, 17:03

I am new to this Forum, so not sure if I am writing in correct place.

Could someone advise where I can source my Grandfather's birth certificate. The embassy in South Africa has emailed me today to advise I must source it from....."The Municipality in Italy".

I written to them for more detailed addresses etc., but perhaps someone here could assist.

He was born in Trapani, Sicily in 1888. Where would I write in Tripani to source this document please.

Thanking in advance for any information.
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Re: Recognition Makes You An Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 23 Sep 2014, 18:04

Write to:

Comune Trapani Ufficio Stato Civile
Largo S. Francesco Di Paola 10
Trapani (TP) 91100
Sicilia
Phone: 092 321753
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