Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citizenshi

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
skyhawk
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Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citizenshi

Postby skyhawk » 19 Jul 2014, 16:11

Hello,

I am seeking Italian citizenship through my maternal grandfather. He was born in Italy in 1908 to Italian parents, emigrated to the U.S. with his parents in 1910, and received derivative U.S. citizenship (i.e., citizenship acquired not by his own will, but through the action of his parents), sometime after 1912, but before he was 21 years old, so while still a minor. What is the significance, if any, to the fact that my grandfather's U.S. citizenship was acquired derivatively, while a minor and not by his own will? He took no oath, and therefore never renounced his Italian citizenship. Is Italian citizenship preserved in such a case?

Thank you,

Don

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby PeterTimber » 20 Aug 2014, 06:50

Yes indeed since dual citizenship is recognized by the USA and Italy
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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 20 Aug 2014, 16:24

Your grandfather did lose his citizenship when he naturalized as a minor with his father. Italian citizenship was lost simply through the act of naturalizing before 1992. The oath has no significance.

The only time a minor did not lose citizenship through naturalization was if he naturalized as a minor, but his parents remained Italian citizens. Unfortunately, that is not the situation you describe.

Do you have any other possible lines?

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby PeterTimber » 20 Aug 2014, 17:30

Hasn't this obstacle been waived? I seem to recall reading something about this several years ago?
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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 20 Aug 2014, 20:40

I'm afraid not. Italy considered that the parent had the right to make decisions for the minor child including naturalizations decisions. For this reason, when an applicant presents a "no record" case, the consulate will ask for parent documents.

There have been several cases in which a naturalization as a minor did not involve the loss of citizenship, but this only happened when the minor naturalized independently of his/her parents and the parents remained Italian at least until the child reached his majority. This happened more frequently in Australia, where 16-year olds were permitted to naturalize independently. It also occurred when the age of majority was not consistent. Italy did not change the age of majority to 18 until 1975.

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby PeterTimber » 20 Aug 2014, 20:55

ANOTHER FEE I PRESUME!
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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby jennabet » 20 Aug 2014, 21:14

My companion's grand-father who was born in Italy and arrived in the USA at age nine with his parents was age 20 and listed along with his younger siblings on their father's naturalization certificate dated 1913. However, because my companion's grand-father was already married at age 20 and expecting a child of his own, Italy had to consider him emancipated from his father even though he was technically still a minor and therefore he did not lose his Italian citizenship while the younger siblings did lose their Italian citizenship through derivative naturalization. As a result, the consulate quickly recognized my companion as an Italian citizen through his grand-father.

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 20 Aug 2014, 22:01

Jennabet has provided another example of how a minor did not lose citizenship by naturalizing. Italy did not consider an emancipated minor to be subject to his parent's decisions. So if the OP can demonstrate that his ancestor was emancipated, that line would work.

I don't understand why there would be another fee.

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby PeterTimber » 20 Aug 2014, 23:40

"Another fee" is a farcical comment about government bureaucracy....It only points to the lack of streamlining citizenship requirements in Italy.
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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 21 Aug 2014, 01:20

Sorry, double post.

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 21 Aug 2014, 01:21

Got it, and you're right. :D

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby playitagain » 25 Feb 2015, 03:15

mler wrote:I'm afraid not. Italy considered that the parent had the right to make decisions for the minor child including naturalizations decisions. For this reason, when an applicant presents a "no record" case, the consulate will ask for parent documents.

There have been several cases in which a naturalization as a minor did not involve the loss of citizenship, but this only happened when the minor naturalized independently of his/her parents and the parents remained Italian at least until the child reached his majority. This happened more frequently in Australia, where 16-year olds were permitted to naturalize independently. It also occurred when the age of majority was not consistent. Italy did not change the age of majority to 18 until 1975.


These "several cases in which a naturalization as a minor did not involve the loss of citizenship", does anyone know any actual legal precedences?? As this is EXACTLY my situation. I was rejected Italian citizenship applying in Australia as my father Naturalized before 21, but the Italian Consulate did not care.
Anyone can help?
I heard I can only maybe challenge this in court with a lawyer....

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 25 Feb 2015, 12:55

Actually, most of these cases are from Australia where it was legally possible for a minor to naturalize independently of his parents. There is actually only one situation of which I am aware in which naturalization does not result in the loss of citizenship. That occurs when a minor naturalizes independently of his parents AND the parents do not themselves naturalize before he reaches the age of majority.

Keep in mind, too, that the age of majority in Italy changed to 18 in 1975. After that date, only those under the age of 18 were considered to be minors.

Derivative citizenship also results in the loss of Italian citizenship. That occurs when the parents of a minor child naturalizes. The minor child naturalizes with his parents and loses Italian citizenship. The only exception is when (as in the case of jennabet's friend) the minor is emancipated--that is, living independently of his parents. Being married is the easiest way to prove emancipation.

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby playitagain » 27 Feb 2015, 02:20

Quote: "There is actually only one situation of which I am aware in which naturalization does not result in the loss of citizenship. That occurs when a minor naturalizes independently of his parents AND the parents do not themselves naturalize before he reaches the age of majority."

My Reply:
This above sounds exactly like my situation. I am curious, are you a lawyer or know a lot about this subject? I want to know my chances of fighting this in court?

My father naturalized at 20 years old in 1959, which the age of majority was 21 at the time, and his father ( grandad) DID NOT move or naturalize from Italy and died Italian. Grandad did not also provide written consent.

Any hope for me therefore to appeal this in court??

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Re: Italian-born grandfather acquired derivative U.S. citize

Postby mler » 27 Feb 2015, 16:44

I'm not a lawyer, but from what I've read, it seems you qualify. If the consulate has been unhelpful, a lawsuit is certainly a possibility, but it shouldn't be necessary.

You may want to post your specific information at www.italiancitizenship.freeforums.org Several posters there are more knowledgeable than I and may be able to help you.


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