How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
crow13b
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How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby crow13b » 24 Aug 2014, 19:17

Hello all

I'm new here and found this forum while searching for help doing Italian genealogical research, and the concept that I could possibly get Italian citizenship is really fascinating. I honestly never had heard about that before nor did it ever cross my mind. Anyways, I've been looking at various info across the web and it always seems like they only go far back as the great grandparents. I'm just wondering how far back can the line go before it's considered "invalid." I have Italian ancestry on both sides of my paternal grandfather's line through both male and female lines, and I even still carry the name! My grandpa is "full blooded" Italian because both of his parents were the US born kids of immigrants. Here's the line of my surname-

Kenneth Pavia Jr (me)
Born: US

Kenneth Pavia (dad)
Born: US

Leonard Pavia (grandpa)
Born: US

Edward Pavia (g grandpa)
Born: US

Leonardo Pavia (gg grandpa)
Born: Foggia, Italy
Naturalized US citizen

Antonio Pavia (ggg grandpa)
Born: Faeto, Italy
Never became naturalized US citizen

Any help better understanding the Italian rules is greatly appreciated!
Thanks

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mler
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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby mler » 25 Aug 2014, 15:20

There is no generational limit to citizenship. The consulates typically give examples only to grandparents, but you can certainly go back further.

You need to determine when your gg grandfather naturalized. In order for you to qualify, he must have done so after your g grandfather's birth when he was still an Italian citizen. If your gg grandfather naturalized before 1912, that would present another problem, but check the date, and we can go from there.

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby crow13b » 26 Aug 2014, 01:36

So far, what I have so far about my gg grandpa is that he came to the US in 1903 and my great grandpa was born in 1908. In the US 1910 census in Syracuse, NY, gg grandpa is listed as a VERY CLEAR "PA" in the citizenship status column. The rest of my ancestors are all listed as "AL" and in other columns of other people, the status "NA" shows up. In the 1930 census, the citizenship status of gg grandpa is "NA." So, I figure that "NA" means naturalized, "AL" means alien and "PA" means permanent alien. If I'm correct, in 1910, gg grandpa had not naturalized yet when my g grandpa was around 2 yrs old. I'm attempting to contact pro researchers to obtain copies for me of the immigration and naturalization records.

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby mler » 26 Aug 2014, 02:57

I believe the PA means that preliminary papers for naturalization were submitted (Declaration of Intent, Petition). The only date that matters is the actual naturalization date. However if papers were submitted in 1910, you may have a 1912 issue.

Before the 1912 citizenship law (I'm not sure what month it took effect), children of an Italian man who naturalized automatically lost their citizenship even if they were born in the US before the naturalization. This changed with the 1912 law.

Most consulates have taken the position that the 1912 law was not retroactive (Philadelphia is a possible exception). This means that all children of a man who naturalized before the 1912 law lost citizenship no matter when they were born.

So keep you fingers crossed that the naturalization took place after the law went into effect.

Good luck.

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby crow13b » 26 Aug 2014, 03:26

Thanks for the luck. I've been shooting of emails to the National Archives. They'll locate the records for me and then I have to pay some small fees to obtain copies. They saw that within 10 days, I should have what I'm looking for. We'll see what happens!

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby crow13b » 03 Sep 2014, 07:19

Quick update and question-

I just heard back from the National Archives. They were unable to match my ancestor with any naturalization record in the NA, and I was advised to contact the county clerk of the county in which he lived, which would be Onondaga county, New York in this case, and also USCIS.

My question(s)-
How likely is it that the county is going to have naturalization records dating back to as early as 1910?

Since the NA couldn't find anything for my guy, is it possible that he never naturalized? That he lied about his citizenship status on the census for some odd reason?

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby TerraLavoro » 03 Sep 2014, 15:46

crow13b wrote:My question(s)-
How likely is it that the county is going to have naturalization records dating back to as early as 1910?

Since the NA couldn't find anything for my guy, is it possible that he never naturalized? That he lied about his citizenship status on the census for some odd reason?


Very possible he never naturalized......but you still need to check with the county and USCIS, the consulate will require that. Census records are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to naturalization information. USCIS has records of naturalizations that took place from 1906. Keep hunting! :)
TerraLavoro

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Sep 2014, 16:50

crow13b wrote:Quick update and question-

I just heard back from the National Archives. They were unable to match my ancestor with any naturalization record in the NA, and I was advised to contact the county clerk of the county in which he lived, which would be Onondaga county, New York in this case, and also USCIS.

My question(s)-
How likely is it that the county is going to have naturalization records dating back to as early as 1910?

Since the NA couldn't find anything for my guy, is it possible that he never naturalized? That he lied about his citizenship status on the census for some odd reason?



In general, the National Archives only holds naturalization records for those who did so in a federal court. The fact is however that - especially in the first half of the 20th century - more naturalizations took place in state courts than in federal. Both of my grandfathers naturalized in the "Supreme Court of the State of New York at White Plains" and I found their records at the Westchester County Archives.

This page ( http://www.ongov.net/clerk/departments.html ) says, "The Clerk’s office has marriage records from 1908 to 1938 for the city of Syracuse, and Naturalization records from 1808 to the present."
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby lomaryunk123 » 16 Sep 2014, 13:02

I agree with you and i also want t get the idea that how to get Italian citizenship?

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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby crow13b » 14 Jan 2015, 04:07

Well, I FINALLY got the results back from USCIS. They found my great great grandpa's naturalization info and he naturalized on June 15, 1912, TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE CUTOFF FOR THE 1912 LAW!

So, from what I understand, short of hiring an attorney and paying a lot of euros or moving to Italy to establish residency, I'm out of the running for being able to get citizenship, right?

EDIT: So, I've been perusing the San Fran consulate since that's the jurisdiction I live under, and I can no longer find any info or mention of the 1912 law. Even on their page that talks about qualifying for Italian citizenship, there is no mention of 1912. Did something happen while I was waiting or something?

Here is the page I'm looking at specifically on their website and under jure sanguinis, I see no mention of the 1912 law.
http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/Templates/PaginaInterna.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b605BA558-B141-4A76-A32E-401A4B335702%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fConsolato_SanFrancisco%2fMenu%2fI_Servizi%2fPer_i_cittadini%2fCittadinanza%2f&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest

limitless4ever
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Re: How far back can line go for Italian citizenship?

Postby limitless4ever » 25 Feb 2015, 14:23

crow13b wrote:Hello all

I'm new here and found this forum while searching for help doing Italian genealogical research, and the concept that I could possibly get Italian citizenship is really fascinating. I honestly never had heard about that before nor did it ever cross my mind. Anyways, I've been looking at various info across the web and it always seems like they only go far back as the great grandparents. I'm just wondering how far back can the line go before it's considered "invalid." I have Italian ancestry on both sides of my paternal grandfather's line through both male and female lines, and I even still carry the name! My grandpa is "full blooded" Italian because both of his parents were the US born kids of immigrants. Here's the line of my surname-

Kenneth Pavia Jr (me)
Born: US

Kenneth Pavia (dad)
Born: US

Leonard Pavia (grandpa)
Born: US

Edward Pavia (g grandpa)
Born: US

Leonardo Pavia (gg grandpa)
Born: Foggia, Italy
Naturalized US citizen

Antonio Pavia (ggg grandpa)
Born: Faeto, Italy
Never became naturalized US citizen

Any help better understanding the Italian rules is greatly appreciated!
Thanks


As far as I was told, there is a limit (sort of). If your ancestors were born before 1865 and moved to the US, they did not have Italian citizenship. Because italy was not a country. But I'm sure most of us don't fall under that category.


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