A definitive answer to naturalization.

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
JustItalian
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A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby JustItalian » 24 Jan 2016, 23:14

Hi, I'm new to these forums and would like an absolute answer to my quest of Italian citizenship through Jus Sanguinis. I've received a lot of conflicting information regarding the issue of naturalization.

Like a lot of people here, I have Italian ancestors and would like to acquire Italian citizenship. My ancestry is as follows:
GG Grandmother -> G Grandmother -> Grandmother -> Mother -> Me

I am almost completely sure that all of them had naturalized prior to the birth of their children, as they had met in America and married there before having their children.

My question is simple: With a lawyer, am I eligible for Italian citizenship?

I'll note that the first two mothers had married legitimate Italian men.

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby James » 28 Jan 2016, 05:55

Hi JustItalian, to answer your question briefly based on your info above... No. Anyone whom fully naturalizes renounces their association with their previous country.

However, I would make 100% certain whichever ancestor was the FIRST to the USA from Italy that they naturalized 100% before birth of their daughter.

For example, in my scenario my GGG grandfather came to the USA in the early 1850s, married in 1855, began his naturalization in 1857 had my GG grandmother in 1858 and then died in the late 1890s without ever completing his naturalization. This meant that my GG grandmother was an Italian citizen by birth and so was her kids and so on without any of them ever knowing!

Another think to make 100% sure of is if the two legitimate Italian men naturalized prior to the birth of their daughter.

Please let me know any other questions.
James
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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby JustItalian » 28 Jan 2016, 08:11

Thank you for your reply! The documents I've found so far have told me that they had naturalized, with a date given. (which I assume means fully)

But after I had found this page www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/emigration/25757 , I noticed that his ancestors had married prior to the birth of the resulting children.. As far as I'm aware, that means they'd lose the citizenship of their country, which is where I'm a bit confused.

So even with a lawyer, such as Luigi Paiano, this is not possible?

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby mler » 28 Jan 2016, 13:58

Essentially, once an Italian citizen naturalized, he/she lost Italian citizenship. A parent cannot pass Italian citizenship to a child unless he/she possesses it. There are, however, many subtleties in the law that are affected by marriage, gender, age, etc. For example, if your gggrandmother lost Italian citizenship through marriage rather than through naturalization (before the enactment of the Cable Act) you would have a legal case.

If you can provide dates (marriage, naturalization, birth) we can better assess your eligibility.

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby JustItalian » 30 Jan 2016, 02:15

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate it. This experience is a bit overwhelming.

I will say that I've only very recently started the endeavor of finding dates and names, and it is mostly complete.

GG Grandmother: Born 1897, immigrated to US 1900, her father naturalized in 1903
GG Grandfather: Born 1889, immigrated 1913, naturalized 1915

The two married in 1920, and my G grandmother was birthed in 1922.

I do not have a lot of information on my GGG grandmother, but I am working on it. One date I have not found is the naturalization date of my GG grandmother. I do not know for sure if she even did naturalize.

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby mler » 30 Jan 2016, 02:55

Unfortunately, both your great great grandparents lost their citizenship directly through naturalization. Your great drear grandmother naturalized with her father when she was a minor. She would have no individual records. Marriage in this case had no bearing on their citizenship status.

Is there a possibility through another family line?

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby JustItalian » 30 Jan 2016, 05:44

There is no other line, I'm sorry to say.

You said that my GG grandmother lost her citizenship upon the naturalization of her father, which makes sense. But:

"If the Italian parent naturalised as a citizen of another country on or after 1 July 1912, and prior to 15 August 1992, then the child's Italian citizenship survived the parent's loss if the child was already born, and residing in a country whose citizenship he or she additionally held because of that country's jus soli nationality laws."

I was reading about Italian Nationality Law and saw this. Is it not relevant to me? Is that date absolutely strict?

I'd like Italian citizenship very much, and am willing to try anything.

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby James Graham » 30 Jan 2016, 14:14

JustItalian wrote:"If the Italian parent naturalised as a citizen of another country on or after 1 July 1912, and prior to 15 August 1992, then the child's Italian citizenship survived the parent's loss if the child was already born, and residing in a country whose citizenship he or she additionally held because of that country's jus soli nationality laws."


This refers to a child born in the jus soli country.
Since your ggm was born in Italy and immigrated to the US with her parents, this does not apply to her

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby JustItalian » 30 Jan 2016, 14:39

Thank you for the clarification.

It seems impractical and unfair for the child to lose citizenship if the father naturalizes in a different country.

With the knowledge I've been given, this endeavor now seems impossible. I can't help but to think that I could somehow lawyer through it, though.

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Re: A definitive answer to naturalization.

Postby mler » 31 Jan 2016, 01:55

Actually, Italy has very liberal citizenship laws. A parent can confer Italian citizenship to a child as long as he himself holds citizenship, and this citizenship can be transferred from generation to generation without limit. According to Italian law, a minor child is subject to his parents' decisions. Thus when a father naturalizes in another country, both he and the Italian child naturalize, and both lose Italian citizenship (until 1992 when this changed).

There have been quite a few challenges to Italian citizenship law, many of which have been successful. These are primarily based on the inequity that occurred before 1948 when Italian women were not permitted to pass citizenship. I've heard of no successful challenges to loss of citizenship through naturalization. If Italy were to accept that naturalization did not cause a loss of citizenship, everyone with an Italian ancestor would automatically be an Italian citizen. I doubt you'll see this happen.


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