Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

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Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby lvelt » 11 May 2016, 16:15

After months of work by not just me but many other very helpful people.

I was just told my son and I are not able to get Dual Citizenship through Jure Sanguinis from the Philly Consulate.

My grandfather was born in Italy in 1901

His father Italian born 1880 was naturalized in America in 1913

My father American was born in 1925 (This is where I was told it stopped because he was born to a naturalized American)

Me American (male) born 1964

My son American born 1992

Did I miss understand all of this because of the websites like myitaliancitizenship.com and myitialianfamily.com misleading me?

Or did I explain something wrong to the person at the Italian Consulate?

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby jennabet » 11 May 2016, 16:54

When your great-grandfather became a naturalized American citizen in 1913, he lost his Italian citizenship and so did any of his minor children regardless of where they were born or living at the time. Actions of the parent affect the minor children. This means your grand-father who would have been age 12 at the time was also naturalized and could not pass Italian citizenship to his own children. From the grand-father on down to your father, you and your son, everyone is an American citizen only and not eligible for Italian citizenship.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby mler » 12 May 2016, 03:37

Jennebet is correct. The only possibility I can think of is that you may have a 1948 case through your grandmother (if she held Italian citizenship through ancestry).

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby kencwalker » 12 May 2016, 18:40

This thread, along with the "1948 Case with Luigi Paiano" topic have captured my attention. I figured my family lost any opportunity to claim Italian citizenship when my mother was born in California after her father gained US citizenship . I'm still doubtful, but may have a path through my Italian grandmother.
Can someone comment based on the family timeline below?
All references are Maternal Grandparents.

Grandmother's father immigrates 1911
Grandfather immigrates 1920
Grandmother immigrates 1921
Grandfather naturalizes before 1929
My mother born 1932
Grandmother's father naturalizes 1934
My birth 1956

Clearly my grandfather was a US citizen in 1931, so could not pass Italian citizenship to his daughter (my mother).

My grandmother's naturalization status/date unknown. No records found, but that doesn't prove anything.
What I have found: A 1929 Ellis Island record shows my grandparent's return from a family trip to Italy (along with 2 aunts). My grandfather and aunts are listed as US Citizens. My grandmother is listed as an Alien. Her citizenship status on the 1940 Census is hard to read. It looks like "PA", but could be "NA".

Assuming my grandmother didn't apply for and receive US citizenship between 1929 and 1932, what was her status in 1932? I think she was still an Italian citizen, and thus my mother could claim citizenship by ancestry.
Thoughts?

-Ken
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby mler » 12 May 2016, 18:57

If your gm didn't naturalize or naturalized after 1932, you have a 1948 case.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby kencwalker » 12 May 2016, 20:49

Thank you mler. That confirms my interpretation.
Now I have to figure out if/when my grandmother naturalized.
(then decide if I really want to pursue an 1848 case.) :)
Is there a way to "prove" something didn't happen?
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby mler » 13 May 2016, 14:17

You will need "no record" letters from NSCIS and states in which she lived. If you have alien cards, passports or other such documents, they would help as well.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby suanj » 13 May 2016, 16:32

Or did I explain something wrong to the person at the Italian Consulate?

Hi,
I don't know if I am wrong, but I believe, that, abt:

My grandfather was born in Italy in 1901

His father Italian born 1880 was naturalized in America in 1913

your grandfather was born in Italy, and also if his father naturalized on 1913, the child gained the US citizenship, because was of minor age, but I believe he no lost the italian citizenship, as the father that expressly renounced ( declaration on intention), because, IF I AM NO WRONG, I believe that was necessary, that your grandfather, when in adult age, to lost the italian citizenship by a legal and formal renounce .

It is true that, until the 1912, the minor whose father was a naturalized in the foreign country, also the minor loses his Italian citizenship, so until 1912, the father's citizenship loss entailed in any case the loss of citizenship for the minor child. The youngest son follows the citizenship's events of who exercising parental authority.

I believe that for a minor born in Italy, whose father was naturalized after 1912, the minor gained the US citizenship, but he don't lost the italian citizenship, because the minor when in adult age can renounce it by itself...
I know that the law abt italian citizenship had some modifications especially from 1992, but the changes have a common principle: the strengthening of ties with the homeland ancestor emigrated and no vice versa..

in your case, IF your grandfather, born in Italy- and because his father naturalized after 1912- well, when your grandfather became adult, IF never expressly renounced to italian citizenship, never formally and legally renounced, he retained the italian citizenship which it has remained standby but not dead...
I don't know if I am wrong, but I believe that a lawyer expertisewill be very helpful...
just my opinion...
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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby mler » 13 May 2016, 19:26

I must disagree.

Until 1912, children lost Italian citizenship when their father naturalized whether they were born in Italy or the US. After 1912, only Italy-born minors lost Italian citizenship when their father naturalized. The US born minor children retained Italian citizenship jus sanguinis and US citizenship jus soli.

Italian consulates have considered naturalization obtained as a minor (derivative citizenship) to cause the loss of Italian citizenship for both parent and minor child. This, of course, ended in 1992.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby suanj » 13 May 2016, 21:40

I believe that a lawyer expertise is essential...

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby zamanka » 15 May 2016, 13:20

Have you tried to ask Luigi Paiano?

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby mler » 15 May 2016, 21:21

A lawyer is most definitely essential for a 1948 case, but loss of Italian citizenship by a minor child when he is naturalized with his parent(s) has not been successfully challenged in the courts--at least, not yet :) The San Francisco Italian Consulate states the following:

"Individuals can become citizens under several very different sections of law or can automatically lose the citizenship through the naturalization of either of the parents." The latter situation is referred to as derivative citizenship.

As Jennebet noted earlier "Actions of the parent affect the minor children."

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby suanj » 16 May 2016, 08:33

Hi,
that is true, in general, and I don't replied anymore because is a long topic to discuss, It would have to write a lot, and I don't have so much free time. The laws and circulars abt laws are all in italian Language and the italian legal words are difficulties to translate in english, and my english is no good, so I no replied anymore, because a helpful discussion on this topic can be just with a italian lawyer especialized in dual citizenship...

What I mean:
"Occorre tener presente che l'art. 20 della legge 91/1992 prevede che tutto ciò che si è verificato
anteriormente all'entrata in vigore della legge stessa sia regolato dalla legge vigente all'epoca in cui si sono verificati gli eventi.

Pertanto è continuo il riferimento alla normativa pregressa:
L. 13.6.1912 n. 555 “ Cittadinanza italiana “
L.19.5.1975 n. 151 “ Riforma del diritto di famiglia “
L.21.04.1983 n. 123 “ Disposizioni in materia di cittadinanza”
L. 21.4.1986 n. 180 “ Modificazioni dell’art. 5 della legge 21.4.1983 n. 123 recante
disposizioni in materia di cittadinanza"

So the art. 20 of law 91/1992 say that:
what happened before of the entry into force of the law 1992, it is regulated by the law in force at the time where the events occurred.

and follow the list of laws..
Obviously our focus is abt the law of 1912.
More:
" Nel caso in cui una naturalizzazione ci sia stata, ai sensi dell'art.8 della
legge 555/1912 l'avo ha perso la cittadinanza italiana , ma nel caso in cui tale acquisto della
cittadinanza straniera sia avvenuta durante la minore età del figlio già cittadino di tale stato
per nascita , costui non ha perso la cittadinanza italiana in quanto l’articolo 7 della legge
555/1912 recita:
Salvo speciali disposizioni da stipulare con contratti internazionali, il cittadino italiano nato e
residente in uno Stato estero, dal quale sia ritenuto proprio cittadino per nascita, conserva
la cittadinanza italiana, ma divenuto maggiorenne o emancipato può rinunciarvi.
pertanto la cittadinanza italiana si è trasmessa al discendente.

So a child US born, if his italian father naturalized after 1912, well the child have the Italian citizenship and in adult age can choice and to renounce to Italian citizenship.

"Tale principio subisce una deroga nel caso in cui l’avo italiano emigrato si sia naturalizzato
prima del 1° luglio 1912, data di entrata in vigore della legge 555/1912.
Infatti secondo il codice civile del 1865, e la successiva legge sull’emigrazione n. 23 del
31.01.1901 , il figlio minore di colui che conseguiva una cittadinanza straniera all’estero , e che
quindi perdeva la cittadinanza italiana, seguiva le medesime vicende del genitore, perdendo egli
stesso la cittadinanza italiana."
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 1WzNzSKwbA

so if the father naturalized before of 1 jul 1912, no hope of italian citizenship for the children...

More:
"2) RAPPORTI TRA L' ARTICOLO 7 LEGGE 555/1912 E L' ARTICOLO 5 SECONDO COMMA LEGGE 123/1983 - CASI DI DOPPIA. CITTADINANZA - RINUNCIA E OPZIONE RELATIVE
L' articolo 7 della legge n. 555/1912 dispone, com'è noto, che "il cittadino italiano, nato e residente in uno Stato estero, dal quale sia ritenuto proprio cittadino per nascita, conserva la nostra cittadinanza, ma, divenuto maggiorenne o emancipato, può rinunciarvi". Tale norma è stata formulata nell'intento di garantire ai figli di nostri emigrati di mantenere un legame con il nostro Stato attraverso la conservazione della cittadinanza. La disposizione in esame consente, pertanto, che, qualora il genitore perda il nostro status civitatis per uno - dei motivi previsti dalla legge, il figlio resti nostro connazionale fino a quando, divenuto maggiorenne od emancipato, non rinunci alla cittadinanza italiana. Il secondo comma. dell'articolo 5 prevede invece che, "nel caso di doppia cittadinanza, il figlio dovrà optare per una sola cittadinanza entro un anno dal raggiungimento della maggiore età". E' stato sostenuto, in proposito, che in conformità ai principi che regolano la successione delle leggi nel tempo, il succitato art. 7 legge 555/1912 sarebbe stato abrogato - con decorrenza 27 aprile 1983, data di entrata in vigore della legge 123/1983 dall'art. 5 di quest'ultima, in quanto entrambi disciplinanti la stessa materia: cioè, tutti i casi di doppia cittadinanza, indipendentemente dalla causa che ha provocato tale status. La prevalenza dell'art. 5 imporrebbe, poi, a carico dell'interessato l'obbligo di optare per una cittadinanza entro un anno dalla maggiore età, termine che, com'è noto, con la legge 15 maggio 1986, n. 180 , è stato prorogato fino all'emanazione di una nuova legge organica sulla cittadinanza (sul punto vedasi circolare K.31.9 del 26 maggio 1986). Altra tesi ritiene, invece, che l'art. 7 non sarebbe stato abrogato dall'art. 5, trattandosi di norme regolanti fattispecie diverse. "

and that explain that a minor born and resident in the foreifn country, if the his father naturalized after 1912, retain the italian citizenship until adult age and he must exercise the opt-out option, in the time and manner specified by law.... this article 7 of 1912 law seemed crossed by article 5 of 1983 law, but it does not care much because we talk in 1913, and also because are two different opinions, wqho say that is abrogated and who say no, and that among the legislators themselves.

Now, first inquiry: as it could be possible that the son, minor, born in Italy lost the italian citizenship after his father naturalization of 1913, and instead the his little brother born in USA don't lost the italian citizenship until adul age and It has the possibility to choose, between US citizenship or Italian citizenship?
... it is unthinkable this discrimination...

And I read also:
"Regime della cittadinanza del minorenne nel caso in cui i genitori, già cittadini italiani, perdano tale cittadinanza. Tale fattispecie è contemplata dal secondo comma dell'art. 12 della legge 1912,4 il quale dispone, com'è noto, che "i figli minori non emancipati di chi perde la cittadinanza divengono stranieri, quando abbiano in comune la residenza col genitore esercente la patria potestà o la tutela legale, e acquistino la cittadinanza di un Stato straniero".
that is the general principle:" Actions of the parent affect the minor children." ( art 12 law 555/1912)
But:
Giova al riguardo rammentare il parere espresso dal Consiglio di Stato in data 24 ottobre 1975, n. 1820, Sez. I, con il quale si è ritenuto che "l'acquisto della cittadinanza italiana da parte del genitore comporta, senz'altro, l'acquisto di tale cittadinanza da parte del figlio minore, ma la perdita della cittadinanza italiana da parte del genitore non comporta senz'altro la perdita della cittadinanza suddetta da parte del figlio minore.........".
the acquisition of Italian citizenship by the parent involves, of course, the acquisition of that nationality by the minor child, but the loss of the Italian citizenship by the parent no doubt involves the loss of that citizenship by the younger son.... and are mentioned some case...

"Si soggiunge che l'illustrato regime di perdita della cittadinanza derivato dal disposto di cui all'art. 12, secondo comma, della legge n. 555/1912 non si estende, come si esaminerà in dettaglio più avanti, a coloro i quali siano destinatari della disciplina ex art. 7 della medesima legge n. 555/1912"
the art 12 is no relevant for recipients art. 7 of same law.
"l'art. 7 della legge del 1912, il caso del minore che iure sanguinis è italiano, ma acquista iure soli (per essere nato all'estero) una seconda cittadinanza". Ne deriva che la persona la quale acquisti la cittadinanza italiana per filiazione paterna o materna e quella straniera per nascita nel territorio dello Stato estero mantiene la titolarità della cittadinanza italiana a prescindere dalle vicende di cittadinanza del genitore o dei genitori italiani e non è tenuta, pur se bipolide, ad esercitare l'opzione per una sola cittadinanza; potrà, per contro, divenuta maggiorenne e semprechè risieda all'estero, rinunciare al possesso."
so until the adult age a minor born in foreign country retain the status civitatis( sitalian citizenship) and it is , until adult age, in the situation of dual citizenship..
etc..
so my first inquiry: this right is recognized to a US born from italian father and no to a child born in Italy from same father? Until adult age.. so a US born, retain the italian citizenship, and for exemple when 17 old, again of minor age, have a child from a girl, and recognized it and transmite the italian citizenship, because he is in the "bipolidia" situation.. regardless of nationality affairs of the Italian parent or parents...
and the same cannot be for a child born in Italy???
Why?
I believe that a child born in Italy have more rights, and it cannot be discriminated by law.

and the above is just one of my perplexity...
Again abt the spontaneity and uniqueness of choice:

"Com'è noto, in base alle vigenti disposizioni, la cittadinanza italiana si perde: a) per acquisto spontaneo di una cittadinanza straniera; b) per rinuncia; c) per opzione di una cittadinanza straniera. a) perdita della cittadinanza per acquisto spontaneo di uno status straniero. Tale fattispecie è prevista dall'art. 8, n. 1 1. 555/1912, il quale dispone che perde la cittadinanza "chi spontaneamente acquista una cittadinanza straniera e stabilisce o ha già stabilito all'estero la propria residenza". Siffatta norma, quindi, ricollega la perdita del nostro status civitatis al verificarsi di due condizioni: l'una rappresentata dall'acquisto spontaneo di una cittadinanza straniera, l'altra costituita dallo stabilimento o il mantenimento della residenza in uno Stato estero. In ordine al concetto di spontaneità il Consiglio di Stato ha ritenuto che "si ha acquisto volontario della cittadinanza, ai sensi dell'art. 8, n.1 legge 555/1912, solo quando sussista un comportamento univoco di scelta personale a favore del nuovo ordinamento" (parere n. 201/86 Sez. I del 31.1.1986)"
Regarding the concept of spontaneity, the State Council held that "it is voluntary acquisition of citizenship, pursuant to Art. 8, 1 Law 555/1912, only when there is a unique behavior of personal choice in favor of the new sorting.
and follow:

"Alla luce del descritto orientamento, il prefato Consesso non ha ravvisato l'esistenza del carattere dell'univocità nella mancata dichiarazione di reiezione di una cittadinanza assegnata in virtù della legge"

So there is no uniqueness if there is no rejection of citizenship assigned by law ...

"Una prima ipotesi di perdita per rinuncia è prevista dall'art. 8 n. 2 legge 555/1912, in base al quale perde la cittadinanza "chi, avendo acquistato senza concorso di volontà propria una cittadinanza straniera, dichiari di rinunciare alla cittadinanza italiana, e stabilisca o abbia stabilito all'estero la propria residenza". L'acquisto non volontario di uno status straniero si verifica, ad esempio, qualora uno Stato attribuisca la cittadinanza per il semplice fatto della residenza sul territorio, ovvero nel caso di costituzione di un nuovo Stato che riconosca la cittadinanza ai residenti sul proprio territorio. Si rammenta, sull'argomento, che la rinuncia alla cittadinanza italiana e la dichiarazione di trasferimento della residenza all'estero devono essere effettuate davanti all'Ufficiale di Stato Civile del Comune di residenza o, qualora l'interessato abbia già trasferito all'estero la residenza, all'agente consolare di tale luogo (art. 16 uc-R.D. 2 agosto 1912, n. 949).
It is recalled, on the subject, that the renunciation of Italian citizenship and the declaration of transfer of residence abroad must be made before the registrar of the municipality of residence or, where the person has already been transferred abroad residence, consular agent of this place (art. 16 uc-RD 2 August 1912, n. 949).

Seeming a basic act.. that... and I finally explain by myself why some Italian consulate wish the "certificato di cittadinanza" and some other no... the certificato di cittadinanza It is proof that the waiver ancestor Italian has been correctly transmitted through Consulate to municipality of birth, and then transcribed....

Now, second inquiry: how much italians, naturalized in USA, transmited the renounce in italian commune of Birth ?
The civil records officers, said me, that it is very rare.. and someone don't knew a certificato di cittadinanza, and the only certificato di cittadinanza that was able to make is "nothing result in these registers in this Commune abt the renounce of italian citizenship"..
What I mean: the naturalization in USA was valid in USA, but if the procedure was no complete to 100% especially regarding the Italy, it was valid in USA but nothing knew the Italy... if the renounce don't was made in the italian consulate and transmited in Italy and here registered...

3th inquiry:
anyone know here, how much Young italians immigrated in USA and or don't made the italian military service, or the WWI... and WWII also...
and by Lista di leva/Foglio Matricolare we read the phrase: "Renitente perché all'estero"-Reluctant because abroad...
and the immigrant was naturalized in USA but nothing knew the Italy.. now if the Italian Army make the enlistment of a italian, for exemple in 1914, and this italian is resident in USA, naturalized in 1913, that what mean?
I believe that in 1914 the Italy is convinced that this italian is a her Citizen, so in the Italy, by the enlistment the government recognize the citizenship... but that is no true in the USA..

Finally I wish say, that is superficial to say that the descendent of a minor italian born cannot apply for italian citizenship, because the choice of his parents must be valid until adult age and no for all his life, and the right recognized to minor US born must be valid also for a It born, hif the father naturalized after 1 jul 1912, and reading the all explanations of laws, if just one step of procedure is no made, for exemple the renounce before of italian consulate abroad and to transcribe the renounce in italy, in Italy this minor resulting Citizen, and if, for exemple, it can be found a military draft card of the grandfather of topic author by myself I understand that for the italian government this person was considered IT Citizen, also if the father naturalized all the family... willy-nilly....

These are just some my perplexity, I have other perplexity also, but it is so long, however I believe that in some case, border-line, the italian citizenship must be recognized...
just my opinion,
best regards,
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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby mler » 16 May 2016, 17:20

I think I understand what you're saying, and you are right. Under the law, a minor child born in the US does not lose Italian citizenship if his parent naturalized after 1912.

If the minor child was born in Italy, however, he is naturalized with his parent, and this naturalization results in the loss of Italian citizenship. There are exceptions to this. If the minor child was living independently (an example would be a 16-year old girl who married), her parent's naturalization would not apply to her, and she would retain Italian citizenship.

I understand your problem with the law because it does mean that the child born in the US keeps Italian citizenship and the child born in Italy loses it, and that doesn't seem fair. The problem is that Italian law says that naturalization causes the loss of citizenship and only the child born in Italy is naturalized. Just as 1948 cases have challenged the law that limited a women's right to pass on Italian citizenship, perhaps this aspect of the law may one day be challenged successfully.

However, the reasoning is clear. When that minor child becomes an adult, he is then in a position to make his own decisions and can ratify or disavow any contracts he entered into as a minor or decisions made by his parents. The adult child could state that he did not want to be bound by his parent's naturalization decision. Failing to do that means that, as an adult, he ratifies the decision made by his parent. By remaining silent and ratifying his naturalization, he loses Italian citizenship.

I understand your arguments and agree that the law is not always fair. I see this in my own family. I am an Italian citizen because my grandfather was born in Italy. My husband who was born and grew up in Italy, naturalized before 1992 so he is not an Italian citizen. That seems unfair as well.

And yes, there is often an inconsistency in records because a person who is naturalized usually does not inform the consulate that he has done so. I can give you a specific example from my husband's experience. Long after my husband naturalized, he was contacted by the Italian consulate because, according to their records, he had not fulfilled his military requirement as an Italian citizen. They corrected the records when they were informed that he had naturalized, and his Italian citizenship ended on his naturalization date.

When a person applies for Italian citizenship, the inconsistencies are corrected because all naturalization records are submitted.

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Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Postby suanj » 16 May 2016, 18:49

I think the part where it is a duty to deal with the law, and see what they think a judge, is the point 2 of Art. 8 of the Law 555/1912, when it comes to spontaneity:
"chi, avendo acquistata senza concorso di volontà propria una cittadinanza straniera, dichiari di rinunziare alla cittadinanza italiana e stabilisca o abbia stabilito all’estero la propria residenza. "
Now the italian law don't accept the will of a child, but that cannot be for the eternity especially when a minor lose a right, because a minor born in Italy, whose father naturalized it together with the whole family, he receives a violation of his right to express themselves in adulthood about citizenship, is this is totally contrary to the very spirit of the law of 1912 and subsequent..

moreover a italian minor so naturalized, that is enlisted for the italian military service (and that is very usual) , for exemple the child born in Italy on 1901, naturalized by father to 1913, the relatives in Italy receiving the his first military call for enlistment, and because the person don't going in the Army, obviously the Army call the police, abt to know why tthis person don't make the own duty, and the police by relatives know that the person is in USA, so on the military documents the phrase: renitente perché all'estero...
Now if the Italian goverment, and in this case the Army, recognize this person as a Citizen in 1919 or 1920, nothing knowing abt his naturalization... I believe that the italian citizenship is no totally lose, is silent, sleeping but no lose totally and this thought just by italian military card... that recognize it as italian Citizen... the fact that don't made the military service is no interesting, what is interesting is that after many years of emigration, the italian government drafting the ex-minor immigrated in USA, pratically it asserts that this ex-child is one of its Citizen...
Frankly don't accept the italian citizenship for so many minors born in Italy and naturalized by father, is to eliminate the spirit of the law and this law was made to embrace the italian blood and no to lose it...
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