Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mabio » 07 Dec 2005, 22:42

I meet all requirements for italian citizenship (jure sanguinis) and I am in the process of obtaining all the requested documents.

My grandfather was born in Citta San-Angelo, provincia di Pescara, june 8th, 1896. He emigrated to Canada, by ship, from Rotterdam, Holland march 28th 1914 and arrived in Halifax.

The last document(s) I need in the list furnished by the Italian consulate in Montreal is

" certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italiana al momento della emigrazione, certificato storico di residenza e foglio di sbarca "

I understand, from the very unhelpful conversations I have had with the person in charge at the consulate, that I must show that my grandfather was an Italian citizen when he left Italy.

Apparently he would have had to be registered in his commune by law and should have notified them when emigrating. Since I am pretty sure his trip was paid for by a canadian logging company and that he had to travel to Holland to catch his boat, his papers must have been in order.

So as I understand it I need to get from Italy;

" certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italiana al momento della emigrazione "
wich I believe was mentionned as being the "Certificato Storico di cittadinanza ",

and
" certificato storico di residenza "
wich I believe to be a separate document,

and
" foglio di sbarca "
this would be the ship's manifest that I have obtained from the Archives in Canada.

Before requesting documents from the commune I would like to clarify a few points, so my questions are,

Are there such documents as the "certificato storico di residenza" and the "certificato storico di cittadinanza", are they the same, and what should I request ?

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby suanj » 07 Dec 2005, 23:07

1."certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italiana al momento della emigrazione "
wich I believe was mentionned as being the "Certificato Storico di cittadinanza "

1. Meaning= that your ancestor was italian citizenship and never renounced:Certificato Storico di cittadinanza " it is right


2."certificato storico di residenza "
2. yes it is the certificate of residence in città Sant'angelo, that your ancestor was resident in this town, this is anopther certificate that you can and must obtain

3. "foglio di sbarco "
3. this is the paper that you must obtain in Canada, since your ancestor really arrived in Canada, the ship's manifest is the embarking, they want the certificate of disembarking...
regards, suanj
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mabio » 07 Dec 2005, 23:39

I have contacted the commune but they say they can not furnish the documents because documents before 1930 were destroyed or lost ?

Is there any other document elsewhere that could be substituted ?
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mfjp » 08 Dec 2005, 05:39

Hi,

Would researching from Family History Film be of any use to you?

Here is what is available (there are 2 pages of results)

http://www.familysearch.org./Eng/Librar ... o+civile++

Note that there is a set of film that may be of interest...

Morti 1866-1910 Cittadinanze 1881-1908 FHL INTL Film 2015552 Items 1-5

My problem is ... I have never researched or even seen Cittadinanze documents...

My comune also told me that documents were not available due to fire... but from what I understand.... most of the vital records that the Mormons photographed were done at the PROVINCIAL archives in Italy... and not from the comune.

and
" foglio di sbarca "
this would be the ship's manifest that I have obtained from the Archives in Canada.


I am curious as to how you were able to get this ship record. Did they search for you... how were you able to obtain your boat information...?

mfjp
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby suanj » 08 Dec 2005, 12:14

mabio wrote:I have contacted the commune but they say they can not furnish the documents because documents before 1930 were destroyed or lost ?

Is there any other document elsewhere that could be substituted ?



about your question, if the documents are destroyed by wars/bombing, ..
it is an problem, also because all certificates for to obtain italian citizenship they must be by Municipality offices...

however for sure all documents that it is possible to find in Mormons, they are no helpful for italiancitizenship but only for to know the data, because are only the copies... instead the official documents for italian citizenship must be made in Common ...

however I read that your ancestor came in 1914 and was born in 1896, so he abt 18 old when emigrated....

I know that :
-when the italian official registries are destroyed, for to italian citizenship, could be helpful and document made by "Esito di Leva" paper... =the militar service...
and this document could be made by Director of the Archive di Stato of Pescara(are registry of militar service from 1870 to 1917), well the Director of Archive can make the real and official certificate "Estratto dai Registri di leva" called, which is wrote from the Director that:... from original militar registry result that your ancestor in 1914(+ or -) was resident in Italy, and that he have not, never, it renounced to italian citizenship because he was called to server in the italian army..
just an suggestion...
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mariocibelli » 08 Dec 2005, 14:57

mabio wrote:I meet all requirements for italian citizenship (jure sanguinis) and I am in the process of obtaining all the requested documents.

My grandfather was born in Citta San-Angelo, provincia di Pescara, june 8th, 1896. He emigrated to Canada, by ship, from Rotterdam, Holland march 28th 1914 and arrived in Halifax.

The last document(s) I need in the list furnished by the Italian consulate in Montreal is

" certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italiana al momento della emigrazione, certificato storico di residenza e foglio di sbarca "

I understand, from the very unhelpful conversations I have had with the person in charge at the consulate, that I must show that my grandfather was an Italian citizen when he left Italy.

Apparently he would have had to be registered in his commune by law and should have notified them when emigrating. Since I am pretty sure his trip was paid for by a canadian logging company and that he had to travel to Holland to catch his boat, his papers must have been in order.

So as I understand it I need to get from Italy;

" certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italiana al momento della emigrazione "
wich I believe was mentionned as being the "Certificato Storico di cittadinanza ",

and
" certificato storico di residenza "
wich I believe to be a separate document,

and
" foglio di sbarca "
this would be the ship's manifest that I have obtained from the Archives in Canada.

Before requesting documents from the commune I would like to clarify a few points, so my questions are,

Are there such documents as the "certificato storico di residenza" and the "certificato storico di cittadinanza", are they the same, and what should I request ?

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you



Sounds like the Montreal consulate are making it difficult. I nor anyone in my family had to produce such a document, what was difficult to show was that the person NEVER BECAME A CITIZEN before the birth of the person (in my case my fater).. That was provided in the US by the INS that they had no record of such a naturalization.

It sounds fishy, have you contacfted in Italian-Canadian organizations in Montreal and seen if others have encountered this. I have never heard of such a thing..
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mabio » 08 Dec 2005, 22:51

Thank you all for your responses.

In response to mfjp

I willl look in to your suggestion regarding "Family Research".

I am curious as to how you were able to get this ship record. Did they search for you... how were you able to obtain your boat information...?


Since my grand-father did not transit through New-York like a lot of Italian immigrants, ( in wich case getting the info is a breeze on their Ellis Island site ) I had to get a copy of his naturalization documents through the "freedom of information act" (Canada) and from there, with the exact date and port of entry, go to the local archive to consult the proper microfilm.

Sounds easy now, but I spared you all the dead-ends.

Basically before the "freedom of information act" was very recently applied to immigration records you could not get anything else from the government but an official document stating the date the person had been naturalized with no other info as to the date of immigration.

Since most the ship's manifest to Canada are not in a database yet (like Ellis Island and other US ports) you have to know the date and port of entry, otherwise if you only have a vague idea it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

In response to suanj

however for sure all documents that it is possible to find in Mormons, they are no helpful for italiancitizenship but only for to know the data, because are only the copies... instead the official documents for italian citizenship must be made in Common ...


I understand they would not be official but if they have a copy I would know that the original does exist somewhere in Italy.

and this document could be made by Director of the Archive di Stato of Pescara(are registry of militar service from 1870 to 1917), well the Director of Archive can make the real and official certificate "Estratto dai Registri di leva" called, which is wrote from the Director that:... from original militar registry result that your ancestor in 1914(+ or -) was resident in Italy, and that he have not, never, it renounced to italian citizenship because he was called to server in the italian army..


This could be very helpful. Thank you

In response to mariocibelli

Sounds like the Montreal consulate are making it difficult. I nor anyone in my family had to produce such a document, what was difficult to show was that the person NEVER BECAME A CITIZEN before the birth of the person (in my case my fater).. That was provided in the US by the INS that they had no record of such a naturalization.

It sounds fishy, have you contacfted in Italian-Canadian organizations in Montreal and seen if others have encountered this. I have never heard of such a thing..


No I haven't, because, for the moment, I am taking the path of least resistance. As soon as I get the birth certificate (long form) I will present it along with all the canadian documents and see how it goes.

I think the first reaction is to discourage people from applying and if you persist politely then common sense will prevail. At least that is what I hope.
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mfjp » 09 Dec 2005, 07:01

Hi Mabio,

Thank you for your reply, I learned something.

I've searched for immigrants at the http://www.pier21.ca/ site (and other Canadian sites) a number of times... and never a result.

Canadian-Italian family research is difficult only because the online sources are way behind the times.

Do keep us posted with your progress as it would help many.

I wish you the best of luck.

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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mabio » 09 Dec 2005, 23:07

mfjp wrote:Hi,

Would researching from Family History Film be of any use to you?

Here is what is available (there are 2 pages of results)

http://www.familysearch.org./Eng/Librar ... o+civile++

Note that there is a set of film that may be of interest...

Morti 1866-1910 Cittadinanze 1881-1908 FHL INTL Film 2015552 Items 1-5

My problem is ... I have never researched or even seen Cittadinanze documents...

My comune also told me that documents were not available due to fire... but from what I understand.... most of the vital records that the Mormons photographed were done at the PROVINCIAL archives in Italy... and not from the comune.

and
" foglio di sbarca "
this would be the ship's manifest that I have obtained from the Archives in Canada.


I am curious as to how you were able to get this ship record. Did they search for you... how were you able to obtain your boat information...?

mfjp


I have just made a loan request for the microfilm through the central library in Montreal, hope it will be granted, will keep you posted and thanks again.

Also about the canadian ships manifests, there is a group beginning to index them, http://members.shaw.ca/nanaimo.fhs/
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mfjp » 16 Dec 2005, 02:56

Thank you for the link! I've bookmarked it as well. Looks like quite the project... I had often wanted to volunteer doing transcriptions but the problem is... they want you to rent the film from either a Family History Center or a Library... and of course, you cannot take the film home with you... just too time consuming!

Hope all is well in Quebec... such a beautiful province... been there 3x and twice in Mont Tremblant in winter.... to see a small running river with ice all around the edges is really nice to look at... just a little too cold though...

Season Greetings, Joyeux Noel,
maria
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Re: Certificato storico di cittadinanza / residenza ???

Postby mabio » 19 Dec 2005, 22:30

Thanks for the wishes, as for things in Quebec I guess it all depends on your capacity to live in the moment and not worry about the future.


Merry Christmas
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