Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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aaronhunter
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Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby aaronhunter » 01 Jun 2007, 21:13

Hello. My great grandfather was born, lived, and died in Italy. My Great grandmother moved to England with a new husband and gave birth to my grandmother there.

My grandmother was born as a british citizen and later moved to the United States as a war bride. She was then naturalized as a US citizen but retained her citizenship in the UK.

I wanted to know if she gave up her Italian citizenship when she was naturalized as a US Citizen? I am confused because since she was born outside of Italy and never claimed her right to Italian citizenship then I don't know if she technically gave it up.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

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pastasugo
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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby pastasugo » 02 Jun 2007, 05:47

She lost her Italian citizenship when she naturalized in US.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby aaronhunter » 02 Jun 2007, 06:28

I'm just not sure because I read things like this from the Italian Consulate in Los Angeles:

5) Your paternal or maternal grandfather was born in the United States, your paternal great grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, neither you nor your father nor your grandfather ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship. (Please note: a grandmother born before 01/01/1948 can claim Italian citizenship only from her father and can transfer it only to children born after 01/01/1948. NOTE: "Italian citizen at the time of "birth" means that he/she did not acquire any other citizenship through naturalization, before the descendant’s birth.
(http://www.conslosangeles.esteri.it/Con ... escent.htm)


So the note states that only my great grandfather had to be a citizen at the time of birth. It doesn't metion that about the others. The form requirements also state:
YOUR DECLARATION THAT YOU NEVER RENOUNCED ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE ANY ITALIAN AUTHORITY, LISTING ALL YOUR PLACES OF RESIDENCE (see attached form 2)
- DECLARATION THAT YOUR GRANDFATHER NEVER RENOUNCED ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE ANY ITALIAN AUTHORITY, listing all his places of residence (if he is living, ask him to sign his own declaration. Signature must be notarized. Copy of his passport and i.d. card are requested - see form 4)
- DECLARATION THAT YOUR FATHER NEVER RENOUNCED ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE ANY ITALIAN AUTHORITY, LISTING ALL HIS PLACES OF RESIDENCE (if he is living, ask him to sign his own declaration. Signature must be notarized. Copy of is passport and i.d. card are requested - see form 3)

Now, this means they had to renounce it before an authority, and this does not appear to include naturalization.

I also read this off of (http://www.italiamerica.org/id71.htm)
"ersons born outside Italy who qualify for Italian
citizenship jure sanguinis renounce their right to Italian citizenship
only by doing so explicitly in an Italian embassy or consulate."

So I'm pretty sure that since my Grandmother received her citizenship from an Italian man and was born outside of Italy her right to citizenship jure sanguinis can only be given up before an Italian Authority right?

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby pastasugo » 02 Jun 2007, 09:09

No, she renounced her Italian citizenship by taking the Oath of Naturalization.

This is why we must prove to the consulate that the ancestor:
a. naturalized after the descendent's birth
or
b. never naturalized.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby aaronhunter » 04 Jun 2007, 01:58

I'm definitely going to have to call the consulate because in this case the "ancestor" never did naturalize outside of Italy. My grandmother was never born in Italy and therefore could only renounce her citizenship before an italian authority, not through naturalization as a US Citizen from England.

I assume that's why the consulate of Los Angeles's questions states that we have to prove that the great grandfather did not naturalize, then declare that my grandmother, mother, and myself never renounced citizenship before an Italian authority.

I'll keep everybody posted.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby pastasugo » 04 Jun 2007, 05:06

She was then naturalized as a US citizen but retained her citizenship in the UK.


You stated in your first post that your grandmother naturalized in the US.

I'm definitely going to have to call the consulate because in this case the "ancestor" never did naturalize outside of Italy.


Now you're stating that your grandmother (your ancestor) never did naturalize outside of Italy.

Both of these statements cannot be true. Which one is correct?

Italy did not permit dual citizenship prior to 1992. If your grandmother naturalized in the US, she lost her Italian citizenship.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby aaronhunter » 04 Jun 2007, 06:52

No, my great grandfather is the ancestor .. not the grandmother... but let me call the consulate... naturalization only causes automatic citizenship for Italians who were born inside of Italy.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby pastasugo » 04 Jun 2007, 07:21

Not only is your great grandfather your ancestor, but your grandmother and mother are also your ancestors.
If any of them, born in Italy or not, naturalized before 1992, they lost Italian citizenship.
They lost their Italian citizenship because Italy did not allow dual citizenship before 1992. Where they were born is irrelevant.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby mler » 04 Jun 2007, 15:36

Unfortunately, I must agree with pastasugo. Because Italy did not acknowledge dual citizenship before 1992, it considered naturalization in any country to be a renunciation of Italian citizenship. Even though she was born in England, her eventual naturalization in the U.S. constituted a renunciation. Had she remained in England, her Italian citizenship would have remained intact.

I agree that it is worthwhile checking with the Italian consulate, but it would be best to expect little to avoid disappointment. SF, like all consulates, demands proof of non naturalization or naturalization after a child's birth, and this is where your application is likely to fail.

BTW, the phrase: DECLARATION THAT YOU NEVER RENOUNCED ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE ANY ITALIAN AUTHORITY applies only to those who were born in the U.S. (or another country in which one is born AND continues to reside). People born in the U.S., could only lose Italian citizenship in this manner. For those born outside the U.S., naturalization is the way citizenship is lost. It's the latter that applies to your grandmother.

Remember, too, that the ability to pass on citizenship stops as soon as it is renounced anywhere down the line.

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Re: Italian citizenship jure sangunis questions

Postby aaronhunter » 06 Jun 2007, 05:39

Well the good news is that my grandmother was totally wrong. I pulled up the documents and her naturalization happened on 1954! I'm in!

But now I have another hurdle to face...

Her birth certificate from the UK has no father listed. I guess her mother and her father had a huge fight before she was born. Her father is listed on her baptismal certificate several months later though.

Now I'm not sure what I can do :(


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