Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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pennyless
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Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby pennyless » 30 Jul 2007, 21:49

I am trying to get dual citizenship through my father's father (my grandfather). My grandfather emigrated from italy, married my grandmother (who was italian heritage but born in NY), and my father was born in the States before my grandfather became naturalized. I have all documents except the marriage certificate of my grandfather to my grandmother (my father's parents).

I have been told by Boston consulate i need my grandparents' marriage certificate or I can't prove that my father was the son of my grandfather. Is this true? I'm still trying to find that document but not sure I'll be able to. Sometimes I talk to people and they say that it is not necessary, as long as my father's birth certificate says that my grandfather is the father (which it does). If anyone has any authoritative answers to this I'd appreciate any info. If you give your answer, please tell me the source of your information. Thank you.

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby peggymckee » 30 Jul 2007, 22:01

Is this your post on another forum? If not, maybe it will be helpful.

http://www.icgsmb.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1923

Are you taking the position that your relative was illegitimate? Or are you saying he was legitimate but you can't find the marriage license?

I think it makes a difference in how you present your case to the consulate. I don't say this as an authority, but from the perspective of finding a "comfortable" position.

Good luck, Peggy

ps I also have a "missing document" problem & don't know what to do--except present the best case I can to the consulate.
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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby pastasugo » 31 Jul 2007, 04:16

Does your father's birth certificate state your grandparents' names as the father and mother? If so, tell Boston they never married.

Have you tried the Diocese archives to find the church record of the marriage? They keep separate records from the government, so maybe your answer is there.

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby pennyless » 31 Jul 2007, 13:14

Yes, peggy, the other posting on the other site is mine. when my grandfather came over he apparently was married to someone in Italy, so I'm not sure if my grandparents married with a marriage certificate or not. I have a picture of my grandmother in wedding gown which my father always kept, so looks like they were married.

Patsa:
I am sending letters to the parish where they used to live, but they lived in both NJ and NY. I think they were probably married in NY but don't know which diocese to contact. I don't know anything about the organization of the Church. Any recommendations?

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby peggymckee » 31 Jul 2007, 13:33

Hi!

I hate to point out the obvious, but if your GF was married in Italy and did not divorce, then if he married in the US, he married bigamously. I think it was extremely difficult to get a divorce in Italy in the past. But perhaps you have a divorce document from Italy.

I cannot speak for the NYC (which is what I assume you mean) Catholic (which I also assume is what you need) archdiocese. However, the Chicago archdiocese has microfilmed indexes of records that are available in the "satelite" churches. In fact, someone on this forum found my Dad's baptismal certificate in the archdiocese index and I was able to get it from the church itself. If it were me, I would starting talking to the Archivists at the Diocesen level in NY, NJ etc.

Good luck, Peggy M
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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby misbris » 31 Jul 2007, 14:20

There are many dioceses in New York and New Jersey. Do you have any idea of the names of the cities or towns where they lived?

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby pennyless » 31 Jul 2007, 14:55

misbris: they lived in Hoboken and Manhattan.

Peggy: I checked the websites for Archdioces and they say to go to the parish for the records.

I have written to 2 parishes in Hoboken, but because I have no idea what parish they belonged to this process seems like a long one. The NY Archdiocese website says to get records from the individual parishes.

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby peggymckee » 31 Jul 2007, 15:43

I may have misunderstood the situation in Chicago Archdiocese, but I believe the archdiocese has an index of sacremental records and from the index, you can tell which parish has the actual record.

What did the Archciocese say when you told them you didn't know the parish? I would also say it's important to speak directly to the Archivist to determine for certain that the archdiocese does not have an index.

Good luck, Peg
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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby misbris » 31 Jul 2007, 16:19

Many parishes in NY and NJ were and still are ethnic in nature. You will find in Hoboken and in NYC that Italians went to certain parishes where services were in Italian or the priests spoke Italian. This may not have been the closest church to where someone lived, but it was the parish of choice. If you find those, it will narrow your search. I'll try to check about Hoboken for you.

Also, have you searched the NYC Bride's and Groom's index? I'm not sure of the site, but I am sure someone in the know will post it here for you.

Good Luck

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby misbris » 31 Jul 2007, 16:32

It would be the Archdiocese of Newark, Hudson County. I don't know how to link it, but try this site. Or just google it.


http://www.rcan.org/parishes/hudsonparishes.htm

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby pennyless » 31 Jul 2007, 16:44

misbris:

Thanks but I already checked the groom index and did find something that looked like a possibility so I requested the cert.# to check it out some more. I also have the Hoboken parish website you gave. Thank you.

If you happen to know the parishes in Hoboken that did mass in Italian that surely would be where my family was going. I'm pretty sure that my grandparents spoke only in italian except when necessary for non-italians.

Also, although my father grew up in Hoboken and went to school there, my grandparents I'm pretty sure were living in the NYC area when they were "married."

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby peggymckee » 31 Jul 2007, 16:58

Pennyless--

I would have said Hoboken is NYC area, but in earlier times, I suppose it had a separate identify.

Have you considered getting your Dad's (Catholic?) school records? How old was your Dad when he moved to Hoboken? Maybe the Hoboken school has records from your Dad's NYC school and you can identify the parish that way.

Peg
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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby misbris » 31 Jul 2007, 17:05

Try this for Hoboken. Archive records are at Seton hall University.

Parish Unknown

If the parish is unknown, please contact Kate Dodds, SHU Archives, doddskat@shu.edu

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pennyless
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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby pennyless » 31 Jul 2007, 17:05

Peg

Thanks. I just wrote to 2 parishes, one of which is the one for my father's school. I also asked for his school records, so hopefully I'll hear from someone. Unfortunately, NY Archdiocese has no index like Chicago. I even called to double check, but thanks for the info. anyway.

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Re: Is Marriage Certificate Really Required?

Postby peggymckee » 31 Jul 2007, 19:16

Dear Penny(less?)

One thing I forgot to suggest: what's known as "cluster genealogy". In this case, try to get the school records of all the kids in the family. One record (not necessarily your GFs) might have what you seek.

Good luck. Peg
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi


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