Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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hellosquire
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Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby hellosquire » 31 Jul 2007, 19:03

Hi all,

It's been a while since I've posted on here. I've been very busy with my citizenship application.

Well, today was the day! I was seen promptly at the New York Consulate at 9:30 am, and everything went very smoothly, except for one hitch.

I am claiming through my great grandfather, here's a tree for simplicity's sake.

Great Grandfather: Born in Italy, Jan 28 1880, Naturalized US Jul 14 1921
Grandma: Born in New York, Jul 21 1911, married an Italian citizen Dec 31 1926
Dad: Born in New York, May 09 1954 (he passes the 1948 rule)
Me: Born in New York

I was quite sure I qualified, until the citizenship official pointed out that my grandmother married an Italian citizen. It's true, my grandfather was born in Italy in 1903, but naturalized in 1952, two years before my dad was born. I could not claim through him, but surely I could claim through my great grandfather?

The citizenship official said that a wife takes her husband's citizenship. In her theory on the matter, my grandmother may have taken my grandfather's italian citizenship in 1926 when she married him. The citizenship official further said that since he relinquished it in 1952, there's the chance that my grandmother lost it also.

How can this be? I thought the only way (apart from simantics involving treason) you can lose citizenship was to become naturalized in a foreign state. My grandmother was born an American citizen. By the jure sanguinis guidelines, she was always an Italian through her father. How could she gain something from her husband that she already had, and by him naturalizing, how does that affect her claim to Italian citizenship through her father?

My question then, is, in the year 1926, did a female American citizen gain Italian citizenship automatically through marriage to an Italian?

I'm very worried now, I spent thousands already on a court order to get certain certificates, a lot of money on translations and apostilles, not to mention travel expenses. The citizenship officer told me she would have to check the laws to see if I qualify now. I'm hopeful, but upset, after spending all this money assuming I fit the jure sanguinis guidelines.

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peggymckee
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby peggymckee » 31 Jul 2007, 19:27

Good luck, Peggy M
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pastasugo
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby pastasugo » 01 Aug 2007, 04:08

Could you share the information with the board? There may be others here who will be helped by it.

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby peggymckee » 01 Aug 2007, 12:29

Hello Squire!

Look in the section entitled "Derivative Naturalizaton".

http://www.genealogy.com/31_donna.html

From 1907 to 1922, if a woman married an unnaturalized alien, she took his citizenship. The law changed on Sept 22, 1922.


Here's a clearer explanation:
http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/a ... 3a7858%3a0

1907
On 2 March 1907 an act was passed wherein a wife's citizenship status was determined by the status of her husband. Here is where the confusion begins to get worse. For women who immigrated after this act (and before later changes were enacted), there was no real change from before (unless their husband was already a U.S. citizen). However, it was different for U.S.-born citizen females who married an alien after this date. These women would lose their citizenship status upon marriage to an alien. Many of these women would later become citizens again upon their husband's naturalization. Women who married men who were racially ineligible to naturalize lost their ability to revert back to their pre-marriage citizenship status.

1922
On 22 September 1922, Congress passed the Married Women's Act, also known as the Cable Act. Now the citizenship status of a woman and a man were separate. This law gave each woman her own citizenship status. This act was partially drawn in response to issues regarding women's citizenship that occurred after women were given the right to vote. From this date, no marriage to an alien has taken citizenship from any U.S.-born woman. Females who had lost their citizenship status via marriage to an alien could initiate their own naturalization proceedings.


Assuming US law applies, I'd say you don't have a problem. But please check this with other sources. I'm no lawyer!

Good luck. Peg
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby jenalonso » 08 Aug 2007, 19:08

Hellosquire,

I agree with Peggy (good work there, by the way!). If the consulate is citing U.S. law (which I'm assuming she is since your grandmother was born here), then she's mistaken. In 1922 (a followup to gaining voting rights), a woman's citizenship was no longer determined by her husband.

If your grandmother married in 1926, her husband's status had no bearing on hers. She neither gained Italian citizenship from him nor lost her American citizenship solely by virture of the marriage.

Sounds to me like you're ok. Best of luck! I'm on the same trail!

Jennifer

P.S. If the citizenship official was citing Italian law by some chance, then of course that might be a whole other story! Let's hope for the best! Please let us know the outcome!
Searching for Nostrame, Mangiacapre, Cherubino, DiPascuale, Franco, Porto, D'Addona, DiLibero.

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby peggymckee » 08 Aug 2007, 19:57

The information I posted regarding losing US citizenship is information about US law.

Unfortunately for HS, his problem is Italian law. Check out the explanation here:

http://www.italylink.com/phpboard/viewtopic.php?t=2251

Peg
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby jenalonso » 08 Aug 2007, 20:38

I hate to admit it, but my first instinct that the consulate was talking about Italian law (I just didn't know what it said, unfortunately).

Hellosquire: I would argue vehemently that any contradictory Italian laws do not apply to your grandmother since she was born in the U.S.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck!
Searching for Nostrame, Mangiacapre, Cherubino, DiPascuale, Franco, Porto, D'Addona, DiLibero.

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pastasugo
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby pastasugo » 09 Aug 2007, 04:50

jenalonso wrote:I hate to admit it, but my first instinct that the consulate was talking about Italian law (I just didn't know what it said, unfortunately).

Hellosquire: I would argue vehemently that any contradictory Italian laws do not apply to your grandmother since she was born in the U.S.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck!


Hellosquire is claiming his grandmother had Italian citizenship. Italian law governs the gain, loss, maintenance of Italian citizenship, not American law.

The text quoted by Peggy is about American law, not Italian law.
Hellosquire's problem is not with American law regarding gain or loss of American citizenship. The problem is with Italian law regarding gain or loss of Italian citizenship.

His grandmother's birth in America is not germane to the problem at hand.

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby jenalonso » 09 Aug 2007, 14:48

Pastasugo: I understand what you're saying, but I still think she can make an argument. There are really 2 ways to look at her right to citizenship. This is what I posted in Italian link so I will share it with you:
-----------------------
This is a really interesting question so I have thought more about it.

Well, first I want to say I agree with you, Hellosquire - under Italian law it makes no sense (as with many laws of gender discrimination) for her to have taken her husband's citizenship. However, if you do make that argument about her being "stateless" upon his renunciation, and the consulate is following Italian law, he/she will probably counter by saying she was not really stateless because she did not lose her U.S. citizenship under U.S. law. They will argue that she simply lost her Italian citizenship by virtue of his naturalization.

So the real question is "which Italian citizenship preempts?" Her citizenship by birth to an Italian citizen (her father), or her super-imposed (and subsequent loss of) Italian citizenship through her husband? I think if you look at it that way, you can make a viable argument that it is the former that should be recognized since the basis of your petition is through blood and not through her marriage.
--------------
So Pastasugo is right - IF the Italian law stating that she takes her husband's citizenship PREEMPTS her right by birth. But if the law is in anyway unclear under these circumstances (after all, it seems like an anomaly), then Hellosquire might be able to win the argument.

Jennifer
Searching for Nostrame, Mangiacapre, Cherubino, DiPascuale, Franco, Porto, D'Addona, DiLibero.

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pastasugo
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby pastasugo » 09 Aug 2007, 19:45

In the end, it's entirely up to the consulate. Whether you or I think an arguement is valid is immaterial. If the consulate doesn't want to accept an ancestor, end of story.

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby mler » 09 Aug 2007, 22:54

I like the "preempt" argument, but unfortunately I have no input on this decision. This is a fascinating case. I hope, hellosquire, you'll let us know how it turns out.

Best of luck.

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby gabino » 11 Aug 2007, 13:24

Hellosquire, you qualify for Italian citizenship "jure sanguinis", and the marriage has no basis or foundation on the decision by the consulate. If every ascendent in line was Italian, they still are, and would never lose that status under any circumstances other than the act of royal decrees (in Italy) before and during the 1st world war. Based on the law of jure sanguinis, a woman could not lose her citizenship status by marrying an Italian citizen, because she was an Italian citizen herself at the time of her marriage. Her American citizenship would not come into the question at all.

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby mler » 11 Aug 2007, 14:15

Gabino, I agree with you, but the problem hellosquire is having is that according to Italian law at that time, a woman lost her Italian citizenship when her husband naturalized. The consulate's position is that she lost the Italian citizenship she acquired at birth because her Italian husband naturalized.

Remember that women's rights in the 20th century were severely restricted. They could not pass citizenship before 1948 and, according to this interpretation, lost citizenship through their husbands. This would apply to an Italian woman born in Italy, and the consulate is saying that this may also apply to an Italian woman born in the U.S. I know--unfair, but there it is.

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pastasugo
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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby pastasugo » 11 Aug 2007, 14:18

It's the consulate's call. What they say goes.

That said I do hope they change their minds and accept your application. :D

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Re: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt over Jure Sanguinis!

Postby gabino » 11 Aug 2007, 14:56

NO, she qualifies based ON Italian law of jure sanguinis 1992. The grandmother DID NOT lose her right to being Italian at birth and was indeed an Italian citizen at birth and DID in fact pass it on to her child which is her father. her marriage is irrevelent, regardless who she married. She qualifies for Italian citizenship jure sanguinis, as this is the very principle of the law. "right of blood", and no marriage can change that. The idea of marriage to a foreigner has no basis on the consulate decision as to qualification. If she is denied, it will be based on another reason, not marriage.


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