Resentment in the Air (directed towards Brazil,& S. Amer

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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drovedo
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Resentment in the Air (directed towards Brazil,& S. Amer

Postby drovedo » 04 Oct 2007, 14:21

Article about Ius Sanguinus Applicants.

[u]http://www.immigrationhereandthere.org/2006/08/brazilian_italians_to_be_modif.php[u]

Quote from article: "Gianfranco Fini, Italy's Foreign Affairs Minister, has repeatedly voiced his concern about these immigrants' ulterior motives for getting citizenship.."

Please comment, especially if from Italy. Interested in what general opinion is in Italy about Ius Sanguinus Citizenship.

Note: I do not say Ius Sanguinus applicants from Canada or America, just Ius Sanguinus.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby mler » 04 Oct 2007, 23:28

I'm not from Italy as you know, but when I told some of my italian friends that my son had applied, the general response was, "Why?"

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby drovedo » 05 Oct 2007, 03:55

That's funny, when I asked a relative in Italy about details about the family history, etc. they had NO idea. I'm going to bug them again, though! :D

I would say there is a lack of genealogical interest. lol. (No offense to all the Italian Genealogists here who have helped me tremendously.) :wink: :wink: I just think that there must be some difficulty in understanding why Canadians, Americans, Argentinians, Brazilians, Australians etc want the citizenship and profess to have an Italian identity which is separate from their nationalities. I think that everyone who applies is interested in claiming formally their cultural and historical identity and language, and not to scam Italy. Otherwise, they should just call it "Tax Shelter citizenship".

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby BillieDeKid » 05 Oct 2007, 04:36

The article is in reference to the large flood of people from Brazil and Argentina. That's what the entire article is about. There is very little, almost nothing said, about America and Canada.

To take this directly from the article you posted:

In the late 1800s, millions of Italians fled famine and disease to the labor-thirsty frontiers of Brazil and Argentina. But now tables have turned. Argentina is still recovering from one of its worst economic crises and Brazil is still plagued with stifling inequality and opportunity-absorbing corruption. With limited opportunity in South America, many Italian descendants are migrating, like their ancestors, for a better life.

Brazil has one of the highest interest rates in the world economy, slowing economic growth but strengthening the currency, making jobs scarce, but travel cheap.

"The past two years has been crazy with Brazilians coming in looking for work," said Pieira Feloj, the liaison for immigrants at Italy's largest union, CISL. This "boom" of Brazilians is almost exclusively people with Italian ancestry, she said in an interview in her office in Verona.

"Business executives, electricians, bricklayers, you name it," she said. "The interesting thing is the Brazilians all have some type of technical skills or at least some education, which is good compared to the African immigrants who generally don't have a craft."

Rome considers Italian anyone who has a direct ancestor from Italy, whether they have Italian citizenship or have not yet recognized their citizenship. This citizenship law, revised in 1992, was meant to encourage white, Christian immigration and reduce North African, Moslem immigration, said Tintori, who researches citizenship in Italy.

"But this was a boomerang policy," said Tintori. "Many don't stay in Italy so you are not granting citizenship to people who are working or paying taxes here."

Young, skilled laborers like Oliveira would be a needed shot in the arm for Italy's lagging economy and could help support expensive social programs and an aging workforce.

But Tintori said a trend of Argentines and Brazilians with Italian citizenship is to move to culturally closer Spain or Portugal and eventually to England or the U.S.

Gianfranco Fini, Italy's Foreign Affairs Minister, has repeatedly voiced his concern about these immigrants' ulterior motives for getting citizenship, Tintori said. On Oct. 25, 2005, on the political talk show, Porta a Porta, Fini said: "I have realized something in South America that made me think a lot: many nephews or sons of Italians who migrated many years ago are now applying for Italian citizenship. They don't speak a word of Italian. They just want our passport to get more chances to enter the United States


According to Tintori's research, 65.4 percent of the 538,000 Italian passports issued outside of Italy were from consulates in Argentina and Brazil


Not everyone that applies is interested in claiming their culture etc. Some people do use it for their own personal gain, whatever that may be.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby MauroMags » 05 Oct 2007, 05:07

Historically, Immigration has been a safety valve for societies that have become overwhelmed by their own populations.

Although many modern Italians hate to admit it; they are so good over there now, because so many of us came over here. (Over here being the America's, Australia, S. Africa,... ) In other words, they should offer a slight thank you to our grandfathers/mothers for the "social programs" they enjoy today.

So what if a few long lost cousins wish to return?

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby mler » 05 Oct 2007, 10:15

Billie is right in that the article seems to be directed at South American applicants, many of whom, according to the article, plan to use their Italian citizenship to move to countries other than Italy. Of course, this is a generalization, but statistically it may have some validity.

Mauro makes a good point in that the many emigrants from Italy provided a kind of "safety valve" for an overpopulated society. Might they now be concerned that the sheer number of potential immigrants would destroy that valve?

On thing to consider is that dissatisfaction with the large number of jure sanguinis applicants from South America may translate into dissatisfaction with jure sanguinis as a whole. Italy, of course, cannot create citizenship laws that discriminate based upon the country from which the application originates.

In that sense, it is an interesting article. Italian citizenship laws have changed many times, and they are likely to change again. How? Who knows.

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The good Italian

Postby drovedo » 05 Oct 2007, 11:08

Billy is absolutely correct, article specifies ius sanguinus emigrant from Brazil (a country which has a large Italian population as does Argentina-alot of whom missed the boat to US in 1920's due to Closed door policy). (I did read it, and get Billy's point about monetary reasons and moving to other EU countries.) However, my point is, why would Italy distinguish between South America and North America in the ius sanguinus process?
None. Both, of Italian descent. So, any reaction and future action would effect both.
***There have and continue to be plenty of changes in the procedures of consulates in US this year.

What I think this could lead to is a limit in generations like Ireland.

Another thing that the consulates may be trying to figure out are the complexities involving South American applications. South American census records (released) indicate that their populations were nearly 80% unmarried. That could be slowing down the process at South American consulates.

On a good note, once you get Italian citizenship, you enjoy tax breaks from Brazil in conjunction with business opportunities that your US citizenship couldn't get you. :twisted: :roll: :wink:

Sincerely,

Pollyanna's Sister

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby mler » 05 Oct 2007, 11:53

Actually, drovedo, I think a limit to generations makes sense. If they decide to stop with grandparents (which seems the most logical and I think is the situation with Ireland), there would be at least a strong connection since most of us know our grandparents. Today, the consulates are accepting applicants who trace their citizenship from even greatgreatgrandparents.

My son, for example, is applying through my grandfather, a man I knew well but someone my son never met. In fact, my grandfather died before my son was born. I would feel comfortable applying through Grandpa. He was a big part of my life when I was growing up. It makes less sense for my son, however, because he is far removed from this Italian connection.

Should the rules change, I would be forced to apply before my son (or with my son). It certainly would reduce the backlog at the consulates.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby BillieDeKid » 05 Oct 2007, 11:57

My intent was not to get in to a political debate, but to point out what the article was about and the intent of the article itself, so as not to insult the many Italians from Italy that have helped all of us on this site. So I will point out again -

Gianfranco Fini, Italy's Foreign Affairs Minister, has repeatedly voiced his concern about these immigrants' ulterior motives for getting citizenship, Tintori said. On Oct. 25, 2005, on the political talk show, Porta a Porta, Fini said: "I have realized something in South America that made me think a lot: many nephews or sons of Italians who migrated many years ago are now applying for Italian citizenship. They don't speak a word of Italian. They just want our passport to get more chances to enter the United States

The concern is that Italy is being used as a stepping stone for S. Americans to get to the United States instead of S. Americans actually staying in Italy to assist in long term support of the economy. The number of S. Americans getting citizenship to Italy is in the hundreds of thousands and relative to that US citizens that try to gain citizenship is a minimal number.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby drovedo » 05 Oct 2007, 12:07

Hope I haven't insulted anyone, I did not believe that the question i posed was political at all.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby mler » 05 Oct 2007, 12:43

I agree with both of you. It's not really a political question, and yes, the article only indicates a concern about the many applications from South America.

However, one cannot separate jus sangunis applications into separate categories based on the country from which the application originates. If the number of jus sangunis applicants from S. America is overwhelming, that problem cannot be solved by a citizenship law that focuses on S. America.

If Italy believes that the large number of jus sanguinis applicants is unacceptable, it is reasonable to assume that it may consider changing its citizenship laws. It has done so several times in the past.

It is also reasonable to assume that any change in the citizenship laws would apply equally to everyone, and would not be directed solely at S. American applicants. In that sense, a concern about jus sanguinis in S. America translates to a concern about jus sanguinis in general.

That being said, it makes no sense to worry about what Italy may or may not do in the future in terms of citizenship. Let's focus on the law as it reads today and worry about changes if/when they occur.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby drovedo » 05 Oct 2007, 13:11

I agree. :P Just thought it was a interesting article I stumbled upon.

Billie, sorry for confusion. Do either of you know how to get full line of a website to show up rather than just part? I can only do underline to show full text.

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Re: Resentment in the Air

Postby peggymckee » 06 Oct 2007, 12:28

Gianfranco Fini, Italy's Foreign Affairs Minister, said ... They just want our passport to get more chances to enter the United States

I am personally aware of one instance where a young Brazillian woman who said she had dual Italian citizenship was trying to come to the US on a tourist visa to work as a nanny. I don't know the end of the story--whether the family looking for the nanny hired her, whether this is legal, etc. However, I'm guessing that she's not an isolated case.

All the best, Peggy M
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Resentment in the Air (directed towards Brazil,& S.

Postby drovedo » 06 Oct 2007, 12:45

Familiar with a case like that 8) The girl claimed Dual Italian Citizenship with Brazil. Its legal for Au Pairs to come into US on one year visa-specific to au pairs. First they must enter on Tourist Visa and present to customs a letter proving that are hired, been accepted to school in US, and acceptance letter to receive the Au Pair visa which they receive a few months later, (they must go to USCIS to get). They must attend school at same time as working. They also must be picked up by family at airport who must present valid IDs etc and validate info.

There are also plenty who enter on valid seasonal work (different visa), not just agriculture, more like summer help at beach resorts,etc, cultural exchange visas working for internship wages, then they have to go back or get sponsorship somehow.

Some are treated awful by weird parents that hire them. I've heard some really strange stories.

No idea what the outcome of that case was. There are Au Pair agencies located in Brazil, not sure why anyone would need Italian citizenship to get the Au Pair visa. A puzzlement. :?:

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Re: Resentment in the Air (directed towards Brazil,& S.

Postby NOLA » 06 Oct 2007, 13:59

My parents' neighbors of 50 years came from a small town in Italy in Abruzzo called Pacentro. Half of the family went to Venezuela. I'm sure most of you know about the Chavez regime and the trouble going on there. JoAnna told me that her young cousins, born in South America went to live in Italy in this beautiful hilltown in the Grand Sasso. They reacquired their Italian citizenship, and have decided to stay in their heredity comune. But, of course, there is no work there. Probably at some point they will have to go to Milano or some other northern city to find work. But they are committed to being Italians. It's true that many just use Italy as a pass-through which is really unfortunate.

A lawyer that I know in NY back in 2005 got his Italian Citizenship. He doesn't speak a word of Italian and doesn't go there often. His son, also a lawyer, obtained it. Why? Only to work in Europe and also to be able to travel to South America without a visa. Probably if the European Union was not in existence, we would be able to obtain our documents much faster. Like the situation with extra-comunitari and profughi, people seem to use Italy as a stepping stone to the more prosperous countries in Europe. For those of us who really want to live in Italy and to really reclaim a heritage lost, well, I guess we will just have to wait in line and hope. Please excuse this emotional rant.


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