Need opinion please

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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gennattasio
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Need opinion please

Postby gennattasio » 01 Nov 2007, 02:30

I have proof that my gf was in NYC from the age of 14 until his death. I received an email response to my requested search for gf from NY NARA that there is no record of Nat. for him.
My ggf's 1st trip manifest is for 1892. He then went back and brought the wife and 3 kids here in 1901. My question is that if the kids birth years who were born in Italy are in: 1889, 1893, 1897 and 1899, is that enough proof that he did not have time to naturalize in this time period? I do have an FOIA request in. I'm wondering how far I will have to go to prove ggf didn't nat.. Thanks for your always excellent help and suggestions.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby peggymckee » 01 Nov 2007, 02:46

gennattasio wrote:if the kids birth years who were born in Italy are in: 1889, 1893, 1897 and 1899, is that enough proof that he did not have time to naturalize in this time period?
What is the chain of relationship for your claim of dual citizenship?
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby gennattasio » 01 Nov 2007, 03:26

My ggf and gf on my father's side were born in Italy and I don't believe either naturalized. My gm is on the 1920 census with her daughter who was born in Italy and both are listed as aliens. My ggf died somewhere between 1904 and 1910, still searching for his death cert. The family is on the 1910 census, gm is widowed, no nat. status for them on that census.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby AnotherCitizenToBe » 01 Nov 2007, 08:15

gennattasio wrote:I have proof that my gf was in NYC from the age of 14 until his death. I received an email response to my requested search for gf from NY NARA that there is no record of Nat. for him.
My ggf's 1st trip manifest is for 1892. He then went back and brought the wife and 3 kids here in 1901. My question is that if the kids birth years who were born in Italy are in: 1889, 1893, 1897 and 1899, is that enough proof that he did not have time to naturalize in this time period? I do have an FOIA request in. I'm wondering how far I will have to go to prove ggf didn't nat.. Thanks for your always excellent help and suggestions.


You should be able to find several threads here which discuss an important point: NARA holds records *only* for persons who naturalized in a *federal* court. Up until recent decades, most people who naturalized did so in the *state* court system.

In the case of my grandfather, a NARA researcher suggested I contact the Westchester County, NY archives (he lived in Mamaroneck during the years he would have naturalized), and I was amazed to have certified copies of his papers in hand just a week later.

Call NARA back and ask who holds the state court archives for the county in which your ancestor resided. I believe the Bronx Historical Society holds records for Bronx County, as an example.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby Poipuo4 » 01 Nov 2007, 13:17

Did you search the naturalization index on www.italiangen.org? They have a lot of NY petitions indexed.
http://www.celenzaheritage.com

dedicated to the people of Celenza Valfortore, Province of Foggia

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby gennattasio » 01 Nov 2007, 16:05

Yes, I did search Italiangen in every district and there were not records. It it was in the local court would it have showed up there? My gf would have nat. between 1924-1948 in Manhattan. Ultimately, will the FOIA request show any and all records? Also, should I receive an acknowledgement of my FOIA request? Sent it in 2 months ago but I know they are backlogged.
If I prove no records on my gf will I still have to prove no records on my ggf also?

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby AnotherCitizenToBe » 01 Nov 2007, 16:23

gennattasio wrote:Yes, I did search Italiangen in every district and there were not records. It it was in the local court would it have showed up there? My gf would have nat. between 1924-1948 in Manhattan. Ultimately, will the FOIA request show any and all records? Also, should I receive an acknowledgement of my FOIA request? Sent it in 2 months ago but I know they are backlogged.
If I prove no records on my gf will I still have to prove no records on my ggf also?


Neither ancestry.com nor italiangen had my grandfather's naturalization records - and, believe me, I tried every possible spelling variation and a number of impossible ones. Frankly, I was certain that my grandfather *did not* naturalize; even my mother (she would be his daughter in law)thought not. Only when I got his death certificate and it said "Citizen of the US: Yes" did I pick up the fight again and contacted NARA.

NARA said they didn't have records but pointed me to the county historical society as I said in my earlier message. I telephoned them and 20 minutes later the researcher called me back and said she had found the record.


So, please go back to my earlier message and follow through as described.

PS: Sorry - it's probably "Westchester County Archives", not "Historical Society". I keep mixing this one up with another research project...

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby AnotherCitizenToBe » 01 Nov 2007, 16:27

You may find some useful links here: http://home.att.net/~wee-monster/newyork.html

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby AnotherCitizenToBe » 01 Nov 2007, 16:35

One more tip: Westchester County's computerized index of naturalization docs only goes up to 1927 (?). Since my grandfather wasn't listed there (he actually did it in 1935), I had to pay a small fee ($25?) for a manual search through a number of bound volumes.

Point being, just because it didn't turn up in an online index, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby gennattasio » 01 Nov 2007, 16:51

Ho capito, grazie. Allora, after I exhaust every possibility for my gf do I still have to do the same with my ggf?

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby mler » 01 Nov 2007, 18:42

I believe you must indeed obtain records for your ggrandfather since the consulate will want to ensure that he did not naturalize when your grandfather was still a minor (in effect naturalizing him as well.) In fact, that may well be the reason you are finding no naturalization records for your grandfather.

Remember that if they did not naturalize, you will have to obtain statements of "no record" from the federal government (G-639). That's the only real proof of non-naturalization that the consulates will accept.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby AnotherCitizenToBe » 01 Nov 2007, 19:18

In the normal course of events, you go back through your ancestors until you find the first one who was an honest-to-goodenss Italian citizen, and then you turn around and move back up the family tree until you reach yourself.

I can't imagine a situation in which you would need this info for *both* gf and ggf. Which one of them was the original Italian citizen from which you are claiming your citizenship?

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby mler » 01 Nov 2007, 21:03

AnotherCitizenToBe wrote:In the normal course of events, you go back through your ancestors until you find the first one who was an honest-to-goodenss Italian citizen, and then you turn around and move back up the family tree until you reach yourself.

I can't imagine a situation in which you would need this info for *both* gf and ggf. Which one of them was the original Italian citizen from which you are claiming your citizenship?


That is generally the rule, but ONLY if the first Italian emigrated as an adult. Minors who emigrated with their parents obtained their citizenship status through their parents. If the parent naturalized, the minor naturalized as well.

For that reason, the consulates require applicants to provide the documentation for the first adult ancestor who emigrated. The automatic naturalization of minor children has prevented many people from claiming Italian citizenship jus sanguinis.

Genattasio is finding no naturalization records for his grandfather, but his grandfather came to this country as a minor, so the absence of naturalization records in his name does not necessarily mean he was not naturalized. That's why the information for the ggrandfather is important.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby AnotherCitizenToBe » 01 Nov 2007, 21:32

Yes, I see that - but then why even look for naturalization-related records concerning his grandfather when his great-grandfather is the one to look at.

When gennattasio said, "Allora, after I exhaust every possibility for my gf do I still have to do the same with my ggf?", my thought was simply that he should be chasing down one or the other, not both. And, specifically, the "one" from whose blood he is claiming his birthright. In this case, it sounds like the great-grandfather is actually the person of interest.

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Re: Need opinion please

Postby mler » 01 Nov 2007, 21:38

AnotherCitizenToBe wrote:Yes, I see that - but then why even look for naturalization-related records concerning his grandfather when his great-grandfather is the one to look at.

When gennattasio said, "Allora, after I exhaust every possibility for my gf do I still have to do the same with my ggf?", my thought was simply that he should be chasing down one or the other, not both. And, specifically, the "one" from whose blood he is claiming his birthright. In this case, it sounds like the great-grandfather is actually the person of interest.


Actually, they are both important. The grandfather could have naturalized in two possible ways--as a minor with his father or as an adult by himself.

Unfortunately when the most recent Italian ancestor emigrates as a minor, it means double work and two possible ways to be disqualified from jus sanguinis eligibility.


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