Discrepancy - please advise!

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Luca722
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Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby Luca722 » 29 Dec 2007, 04:45

I'm afraid of a potential discrepancy of my Grandfather's name on my Great Grandfather's Naturalization Petition. On the Petition, Grandfather's name is listed as Celsi, but his birth certificate says Celso. Later in life, he was called Jesse (for example, on his marriage cert, my father's birth cert. and his death certificate). Are these discrepancies problematic for Duel Citizenship?

Also, is Celso Italian for Jesse?

Please help! Thanks!

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PeterTimber
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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby PeterTimber » 29 Dec 2007, 05:08

I have no knowledge about dual citizenship and neither celsi or celso are italian first names and Jesse is scottish for Janet. =Peter=

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby liviomoreno » 29 Dec 2007, 06:53

PeterTimber wrote:I have no knowledge about dual citizenship and neither celsi or celso are italian first names and Jesse is scottish for Janet. =Peter=

Although rare, Celso is an Italian first name.

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby peggymckee » 29 Dec 2007, 13:38

Luca722 wrote:Are these discrepancies problematic for Duel Citizenship?
You task will be to convince the Consulate that Celso=Celsi=Jesse--in other words, that all the (first?) names refer to the same person.

You don't mention if there are discrepancies with the surname. Are there?

Your best course would be to get GF's marriage cert, F's BC, and GF's DC amended to show the GF's BC name, or to get the GF's BC name listed as an AKA. I don't know if this is possible in your state, however.

As far as I know, there is no way to amend naturalization papers, but hopefully with all the other changes, that discrepancy will be considered minor. If F is still living, maybe he will give an affidavit that Celso was misspelled as Celsi on GGF papers. All the best, Peg
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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby PeterTimber » 29 Dec 2007, 13:56

Dear Livio Thank you for finding out that Calso and Celsi are remote Italian names. I am very interersted in knowing just what are your references that state Celso and Celsi are first names, if you can. The name is so remote that it needs some intellectual support so that future inquiries can be verified.. =Peter=

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby PeterTimber » 29 Dec 2007, 14:21

Dear Liivio do not move a muscle!! Last night there was one reference that I was too tired to look at and tthat is the refernce to first names foor Celsi and celso. The name is Italian Spanish and Portuguese and derived fromthe Roman family surnamed CELSUS menaing TALL. The website is www.behindthename.com/nmc/ita.php. =Peter=

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby PeterTimber » 29 Dec 2007, 14:26

....or just www.behind the name.com. =Peter=

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Luca722
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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby Luca722 » 29 Dec 2007, 14:37

Thanks everyone for helping me out.

Celso is an Italian name, I'm just confused on where "Jesse" came out of it. No one in my family is sure.

In any case, I do have his passport that lists "Jesse Celso Gasbarro". Do you think this will help?

By the way, the surname is spelled correct all across the board (all records, cert., etc. so that's good news).

Thanks again,
Luca

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby peggymckee » 29 Dec 2007, 15:19

Luca722 wrote:I do have his passport that lists "Jesse Celso Gasbarro". Do you think this will help?
The Consulate makes the decisions, and they might accept it as proof that Celso on BC is Jesse on all other documents. But they might not. If you follow the various dual citizenship message boards, you will see that what seem like identical situations are often treated differently--even within the same Consulate.

Since amending certificates is challenging (to put it mildly) and often not possible, maybe your best course is to take your docs (including the PP) to the Consulate and see if they will accept them. If they won't, then you will emerge with a clearer idea of what you need to do.

You might get more information from his PP application--costs a lot, though. The ap. should list the docs used to get the PP.
http://travel.state.gov/passport/servic ... s_872.html

Good luck, Peg
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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby PeterTimber » 29 Dec 2007, 15:20

Luca when Italian immigrants frist came to the USA, Italian names were strange to the ears of the Americans and either real or imagined felt uncomfortable so they called these immigrants names that suited them and called these immigrants with whatever names suited them. In NYC Vincenzo became Jimmy and Pasquale became Patsy and so on. Thus Jesse may very well have been chosen by others or the immigrant himself.=Peter=

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby peggymckee » 29 Dec 2007, 15:29

Peter is correct. "Informal" name changes were extremely common and now cause a lot of trouble for those wanting dual citizenship. If GF changed his name legally and you can get a copy of the name change papers, your troubles are over! Unfortunately, I do not know how you can find that out. All the best, Peg
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Luca722
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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby Luca722 » 29 Dec 2007, 16:49

Thanks again for all the advice.

We doubt he ever legally changed his name, but I should research that.

Regarding the PP application, I assume the documents he used are exactly what I have (BC, MC, etc.). Are there any other documents he might have used that I would not have?

Meanwhile, do you think it's wise to have my father write an affidavit stating that "Celso" was always referred to as "Jesse"?

Thanks!
Luca

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby peggymckee » 29 Dec 2007, 17:00

Luca722 wrote:do you think it's wise to have my father write an affidavit stating that "Celso" was always referred to as "Jesse"?
My suggestion is that you take the papers that you have and show them to the Consulate and see what they consider to be discrepancies. Maybe they will be satisfied with the papers as they are.

You must understand that the Consulate seems to decide each case on what it considers to be its merits. At the end, my opinion counts for nothing. Only the opinion of the Consulate counts.

Also, I did not suggest that F make an affidavit that Celso=Jesse. I suggested Celso=Celsi. As for the wisdom of either, if you have concerns, you need to consult an attorney. Also, changing names on vital records can lead to estate or other legal problems. Again, consult an attorney before making amendments or changes to vital records.

Before you do anything, why not read more about discrepancies on
http://www.icgsmb.com/board/
or http://www.italylink.com/phpboard/viewforum.php?f=2
All the best, Peg
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby Aether » 18 Jan 2008, 03:22

Luca722,

May i put in my 2 cents?

From the Latin: Celsus, Celsum. CELSI is the plural also used as a surname. ( several members of the family = the CELSI!

In the moral sense it means: eminent, upraised, high, lofty.
Great name!

Aether :)
"Fiori di grano.
Amici piu' di prima saremo;
Amici piu' di prima da lontano".

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Re: Discrepancy - please advise!

Postby Aether » 18 Jan 2008, 03:30

Luca722,

Another 2 cents: Are you familiar with the name Gesualdo? It is an old name...Common in the south, and also in Portugal.

Aether
"Fiori di grano.

Amici piu' di prima saremo;

Amici piu' di prima da lontano".


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