Establishing "No Record" with Census errors - Past

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Establishing "No Record" with Census errors - Past

Postby Pastore » 01 Feb 2008, 06:49

I have been attempting to establish whether or not my great-Grandfather ever became a U.S. Citizen, and have come up with very conflicting information.

Name: Giovanni Pastore
Born: Levone, Torino, Italy - May 13th, 1875

Obviously, at this point, not a citizen.
First Arrival - 1899 from Le Havre, France.
Ship Manifest

He went back to Italy, got married, and brought his wife.
This time, it shows him as a citizen.
Second Arrival - 1907 from Le Havre, France.
Ship Manifest

The 1910 Census, then lists him as having papers filed for citizenship. So, he's not a citizen, then...
1910 Census

In 1918, Giovanni signed a military registration card. On this card, he lists himself as a citizen.[url=http://www.pastorefamily.info/images/records/1918_military_reg_JPastore.jpg]
Military Registration Card[/url]

I do not have a copy of the 1920 Census, but I believe he also lists himself as a U.S. Citizen.

The 1930 Census also lists him as a citizen.
1930 Census

Here is the dilemma:

I have checked the entire record of Vermillion County Indiana for Naturalization Records. There are none. And when I say I checked the records, I checked them all by hand at the Indiana State Archives. I saw most all of the surnames of my neighbors and friends from my hometown, but not my own. The records start pre-1900 and go to the 1950s. Having done this, there is no way to confirm citizenship since all of the Naturalization proceedings were done at the county level at that time. There will be no records with NARA due to this, as well.

I would like to establish "No Record" to be able to claim dual citizenship for my father, my brother, and me, but am at a loss as to where to go next.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby peggymckee » 01 Feb 2008, 17:27

Hi! From the breadth of your knowledge, I assume you've checked ancestry.com, footnote.com etc. If not, most public libraries have paid subscription--and so do Family History Centers, LDS.

My other suggestion is to request Giovanni's SS-5, (he almost certainly had an SSN even if you don't know it and even if he's not in the SSDI). It might be on his death certificate. Ask for the photocopy of the original application, not the numident. The SS-5 will show how he is qualified for SS. You can apply on the web.
https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps7/efoiassa/ ... SSA711.jsp

BTW, do you know where he lived between his first and second arrivals in the US?

Good luck, Peg
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby vj » 01 Feb 2008, 17:45

do you know where he lived between his first and second arrivals in the US?


My 2 cents :wink:
If he was in Braceville, Grundy, IL (from 1899 manifest)
The possible census indicates another earlier immig date
& naturalized
Note: may be living with the same? Boggetto family from
the 1899 manifest?

Valarie

1900

earlier manifest?
1892
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 01 Feb 2008, 21:05

Thank you all for your help so far.

I have checked ancestry.com, footnote, etc...

I have just found another ship manifest from 1912 when Giovanni's wife Orsola went back to Italy. She gave birth to their third child in Italy, and when they returned, the were listed as "Non-Resident Aliens."

Peg, most of the time from 1900 to 1907-8, he was located in Leechburg, PA (Armstrong County).

I also spoke with the Office of USCIS History & Library Archivist, who has no records, either. She suggested that if naturalization took place, it would most likely be in the Pennsylvania era. But, this would then make his wife an automatic citizen, which she clearly wasn't from the above ship's manifest. Also, the 1910 census states that papers had been filed, but not finalized. The odd thing is that 2 of the 3 children that arrived with her on this trip were born in the U.S., so they should be citizens, as well.

VJ, as for the earlier manifest, I have seen that one before, also, but do not think it is the same person because of the middle name and age. Thanks!

Again, thanks to all as I try to figure this one out!
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby peggymckee » 02 Feb 2008, 00:24

Pastore wrote:I also spoke with the Office of USCIS History & Library Archivist, who has no records, either.
Do you NARA or USCIS? If USCIS, please post the phone #. Many thanks, Peg
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 05 Feb 2008, 16:47

peggymckee wrote:
Pastore wrote:I also spoke with the Office of USCIS History & Library Archivist, who has no records, either.
Do you NARA or USCIS? If USCIS, please post the phone #. Many thanks, Peg

Peg, unfortunately, the phone number is a direct line, and I would hate to flood the lady who was extremely nice and helpful by posting it on a board. If you want to email me (webmaster@italianheritage.org), I'll send it to you directly.
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 06 Feb 2008, 03:03

I spoke with my Grandmother today, who related a story of Naturalizations that took place at a church/community center in Clinton (Vermillion Co.) Indiana. She does not know which court the judge was from, but it seems that this was a common practice at the time. I will be checking into this in the next couple of days. If anyone else has heard of this type of practice in the early 1900s, let me know. They say it was a Presbyterian group that organized them.
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby vj » 06 Feb 2008, 15:41

Have you tried the Vermillion County historian?

http://www.indianahistory.org/lhs/historianlist.html
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 11 Mar 2008, 15:47

OK, so I spoke with the Vermillion County Historian, and unfortunately it was not very helpful. At this point it seems I am out of options. So my next question is this:

How do I go about proving that there is "No Record?"
Is there an official list of requirements for this classification?

Thanks in advance for your input.
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby peggymckee » 11 Mar 2008, 16:39

USCIS is the official source of no record of naturalization. You have to ask them to search. Here's a link to the form:

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/g-639.pdf

You can also write a letter. Good luck, Peggy M
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby suanj » 11 Mar 2008, 16:41

Pastore wrote:I have been attempting to establish whether or not my great-Grandfather ever became a U.S. Citizen, and have come up with very conflicting information.

Name: Giovanni Pastore
Born: Levone, Torino, Italy - May 13th, 1875

Obviously, at this point, not a citizen.
First Arrival - 1899 from Le Havre, France.
Ship Manifest

He went back to Italy, got married, and brought his wife.
This time, it shows him as a citizen.
Second Arrival - 1907 from Le Havre, France.
Ship Manifest

The 1910 Census, then lists him as having papers filed for citizenship. So, he's not a citizen, then...
1910 Census

In 1918, Giovanni signed a military registration card. On this card, he lists himself as a citizen.[url=http://www.pastorefamily.info/images/records/1918_military_reg_JPastore.jpg]
Military Registration Card[/url]

I do not have a copy of the 1920 Census, but I believe he also lists himself as a U.S. Citizen.

The 1930 Census also lists him as a citizen.
1930 Census

Here is the dilemma:

I have checked the entire record of Vermillion County Indiana for Naturalization Records. There are none. And when I say I checked the records, I checked them all by hand at the Indiana State Archives. I saw most all of the surnames of my neighbors and friends from my hometown, but not my own. The records start pre-1900 and go to the 1950s. Having done this, there is no way to confirm citizenship since all of the Naturalization proceedings were done at the county level at that time. There will be no records with NARA due to this, as well.

I would like to establish "No Record" to be able to claim dual citizenship for my father, my brother, and me, but am at a loss as to where to go next.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

if Giovanni Pastore in 1907 ship's manifest was US citizen, he must be in this database : U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925 (??)

well in 1912 Orsola and children (US born) came back in the USA

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about Orsola Pastore
Name: Orsola Pastore
Arrival Date: 10 Mar 1912
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Port of Departure: Havre
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: Italian (North) (Italian)
Ship Name: La Provence
Search Ship Database: View the La Provence in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Nativity: Italy
Line: 5
Microfilm Serial: T715
Microfilm Roll: T715_1817
Birth Location: Italy
Birth Location Other: levone
Page Number: 188




page 1 http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7435/orsola1mj6.jpg
page 2 http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8474/orsola2bn5.jpg

father ALICE Sebastiano in Levona... joining Giovanni Pastore husband
also interesting the birthplace of children: Giovanni, Sebastiano, Domenico.... I don't understand if she was already citizen or no, maybe who have better eyes can read better.......

1920 United States Federal Census
about John Pastore
Name: John Pastore
Home in 1920: Clinton, Vermillion, Indiana
Age: 45 years
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: Oselina
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Male
Home owned: Own
Year of Immigration: 1892
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Image: 120
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Pastore 45
Oselina Pastore 35
John Pastore 12
Silvia Pastore 10
Domonick Pastore 8
Margret Pastore 6
Rosey Pastore 4 2/12
Charley Pastore 2 1/12

John and Orsolina both naturalized


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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 13 Mar 2008, 14:19

Thanks for the help!

I checked out the Passport Applications (Thanks, suanj), and found no records of either, Giovanni, John, or Orsola Pastore in the records.

On the 1912 manifest, it says "NON-IMMIGRANT ALIEN" in a stamp over the names of Orsola, Giovanni (Jr.), and Sebastiano, at least, and possibly over Domenico, as well. This is odd, since Giovanni (Jr.), and Domenico were born in the U.S. while Sebastiano was born in Italy on the trip from which she just returned.

I am assuming that at this point, they (Giovanni and Orsola) are not yet citizens.

So with this information, I am no closer to finding any records proving citizenship one way or the other. Peg, I am going to take your advice and see if I can have USCIS do anything for me here, as I feel like there are no more avenues for me to search out. If anyone has any other ideas, please feel free to let me know.

Thanks again to all of you!
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby MysteryMike » 13 Mar 2008, 15:04

1920 Census

Listed as Naturalized.... Immigration year 1892... but 1907 seems to be crossed out, maybe the year of naturalization?
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 18 Mar 2008, 20:18

Thanks Mike for the census info for 1920. Unfortunately, census records do not necessarily rule anything in or out. I have a suspicion that because of the 1910 census saying papers were filed and the 1918 Military registration which stated he was a citizen, that naturalization, if it occurred, happened in that time frame. I think, though, that since I have exhausted all means of finding an actual certificate, that I will go ahead and submit to USCIS at this point.

Does anyone know if there is a forum that discussed just the topic of submitting the Form g-639? If not, can anyone answer what I would need to send as far as "Proof of Death" since I cannot seem to find any records of that, as well. Also, any tips as to what should be entered would be helpful.

Thanks again. This forum has been great!!
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Re: Establishing "No Record" with Census errors -

Postby Pastore » 21 Mar 2008, 16:50

I submitted my FOIA request yesterday. I'll keep you informed of the progress, and will probably be back in a few months trying to find documents in Italy such as birth and marriage records, etc...
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