Jure Sanguinis

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 27 Jun 2008, 14:13

Hi, I know that I qualify for Italian citizenship because my paternal grandparents were both born in Italy. If I apply and am granted that citizenship, does that qualify my adult children to apply for the same?

Thanks, Pete

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby JamesBianco » 27 Jun 2008, 14:41

It is recommended that your adult children apply with you, to make things easier. They can of course apply at any time after you have obtained your dual-citizenship but the paperwork required would be somewhat more.

Your grandparents were both born in Italy you said, and neither of your parents became citizens I assume (or at least after your birth)?

I am sure you are aware of the very specific scenario required to gain dual-citizenship, and that having a parent or grandparent who was a native Italian is not enough.

Good Luck! Please post your progress, I am currently in the process of obtaining all of the documents and love to hear others' experiences.

Jim

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 27 Jun 2008, 15:54

Thanks for the quick reply.

I'm assembling paperwork to apply. My quest is simplified by the fact that my grandparents immigrated separately and were married and lived in New york City. My father was born there before his father naturalized, married a New Yorker and lived his whole life there. The complications arise with my marriage to an Uruguayan in Uruguay and my children's births in Colorado, Paraguay and Pennsylvania.

I think that I need my wife's birth certificate and our marriage certificate legalized by the Italian Consul in Uruguay. (I don't think Uruguay uses the Apostille.)

Can we just include my children's birth certificates with the application to include them in the process? (We'll probably have to get my son's birth certificate legalized by the consol in Paraguay.)

At this point, it appears that the real delay is getting my grandparents' birth certificates from Italy.

Thanks for your interest, Pete

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby JamesBianco » 27 Jun 2008, 16:40

pnovembre wrote:Can we just include my children's birth certificates with the application to include them in the process?


They are adults so unfortunately they will be required to take part in the process personally.

pnovembre wrote:At this point, it appears that the real delay is getting my grandparents' birth certificates from Italy.


I wouldn't worry about this, all you need to do is write to The Comune and (in almost all cases) you would have them in hand within a month. I would do that now and get it over with, these certificates do not expire, and naturally do not need an apostille.

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 27 Jun 2008, 16:59

Hi Jim,

Wow, I continue to be impressed by the quick response and useful info from this website!!! vj got me started and located my grandfather in one day.

From your reply, am I correct in assuming that my children have to make the same application that I do, but if we do it at the same time, my paperwork suffices for all?

New York City promises response in three to four weeks. Then another three to four for the recognition by the county clerk before I can send the papers to the State for the Apostilles. If the comunes are as quick as you say, it looks like the longest part of the process will be the Italian Consuls in Uruguay and Paraguay.

Thanks again, Pete

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby mler » 27 Jun 2008, 19:07

Your children can apply with you, and your paperwork will suffice. They will simply add their own information. When you make your appointment, be sure to let the consulate know how many will be applying so that they allocate sufficient time.

It took me several months (not several weeks) to get my NYC documents, but I believe they have modernized their system. I actually walked my documents through the notarization and apostille process, and they were done in a matter of hours, so this is a possibility if you are near the city.

The efficiency of the comune is not predictable. It all depends on the comune and how easy it is for them to locate your documents.

May I also suggest that you contact NARA to obtain your grandfather's naturalization documents (Petition, Declaration and Oath). This can be done by phone, and it will take about a week. If your grandfather naturalized in NYC, his papers are likely filed there, and many consulates will accept these documents in lieu of an actual naturalization certificate. (The Oath specifies the naturalization date.)

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 01 Jul 2008, 00:40

Thanks for your input. I will be applying by mail. I live in Colorado and the Consulate that has juristiction is in Chicago. As I get to understand the process, I realize that my son who lives in Los Angeles will probably have to apply separately through that Consulate. Do you know if Chicago could do it if we are applying together?

Another question: My son was born in Paraguay, but he has a "Certificate of Birth of a Citizen Born Abroad" issued by the US Consulate in Paraguay at that time. It functions as his legal birth certificate in the US. Does anyone know if this will suffice as his birth certificate for the Italian Consulate? If so how does the Apostille work? My understanding is that these are issued by the individual states.

I noticed a posting on the Italian Expat site that the Consulate in Chicago is not making any more appointments for citizenship reviews this year. Can any one confirm this? Does it also apply to applications by mail? If so, I have at least six more months to get my papers together.

Pete

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby JamesBianco » 01 Jul 2008, 00:56

mler wrote:Your children can apply with you, and your paperwork will suffice. They will simply add their own information. When you make your appointment, be sure to let the consulate know how many will be applying so that they allocate sufficient time.


yes, as I said, they will need to take part in the process personally. Merely bringing their birth records to the meeting (since they are adults) will not allow them to gain Italian Citizenship.

mler wrote:The efficiency of the comune is not predictable. It all depends on the comune and how easy it is for them to locate your documents.


This is also true, but more often than not the comune will respond within a month with the requested certificates. I have yet to experience a delay less than a month, and between my Natural, Adopted and Married lines, I've written to twelve Comunes (repeatedly over the years). All 12 have responded promptly. As long as you have a very small range of dates (or even better a specific date) the wait will be minimal.

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 01 Jul 2008, 03:42

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your comments. I assume that my children will have to make their own applications refering to my application for the copies of records, apostilles etc. I'm still not sure about the Chicago/LA question. I expect that my daughter who also lives in Colorado will be able to apply with me, but my son will have to apply separately in LA after our application is settled. (I hope that we get the original paperwork back for his use.)

As for the communes, I have my grandparents exact birth dates from other records (that is assuming that they recorded them accurately). I'm still waiting for the microfilm from the LDS to pin down my grandfather's commune in Bari. I think that it's Noci, but I'm not sure. I sent an e-mail Noci about ten days ago.

My grandmother noted Montecorvino, Salerno as her birth place on the ships manifest. Unfortunately, there are two Montecorvinos in Salerno. I guess I'll have to write to both of them.

Thanks again, Pete

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 28 Jul 2008, 22:40

Hi Jim,

You asked that I keep you informed of my progress. Documents are starting to arrive. And as they do I'm presented with some questions.

My grandfather's naturalization was through the New York Supreme Court. The Division of Old Records have sent me his "Declaration of Intention" and his "Petition for Naturalization" which includes his oath of alligiance and the order of the court admitting the petitioner. At the end is his Certificate of Naturalization number. Do you know if these are the documents I need or do I have to the actual certificate. I don't think that NARA has that document.

There are two discrepancies in the documents. The declaration shows his correct birthdate of 1880 in his handwriting, but when it was typed on the petition, It was entered as 1890. I don't know if I can get this corrected, but I'm going to call NY tomorrow to see what I can do.

My Father's first name is mispelled on the petition in the children under 18 section, but from the previous post about experience in Miami, it does not appear that this will be a problem.

My father's first name is also misspelled as "Onofio" instead of "Onofrio" on both my birth certificate and my parent's marriage certificate. I'm waiting to receive his birth certificate and death certificate to see what I should do about that.

On the Chicago/LA consulate question, after reading other posts, both on this site and on expattalk, I think that our families best course of action is to have my son apply directly in LA. It appears that the process there is quite a bit quicker than in Chicago. Do you or anyone else have any advice on this?

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby mler » 29 Jul 2008, 13:43

I most definitely agree that LA is probably a better place to begin than Chicago, which now (along with SF) has the worst reputation for efficiency.

Regarding the NARA forms. Some consulates accept certified NARA documents in lieu of the actual naturalization certificate. Some consulates do insist on the certificate, but I don't know if LA and Chicago are among them.

My dad was listed incorrectly on my grandfather's petition. His date of birth was totally incorrect. I simply pulled the Petition from the packet and submitted only the Declaration and the Oath. Since it is the Oath that is the significant document, the consulate did not question this omission.

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 29 Jul 2008, 21:30

From your comment, I assume that the document that I have from the NY court will be sufficient. I had also thought about leaving out the typed "Petition". Without it all the dates and names are correct.

The LA Consulate's web site seem to have a more user friendly format including forms to provide all the info they require. My son will apply under catagory 5. I am not familiar with the burocracy of the cumunes, but it seems that when he does so, I get recorded as part of the process. I have to declare my intent to apply in order for him to receive his citizenship. Do you know if this will simplify the process for me when I do apply?

Can anyone confirm that the fact that my father's name is misspelled on at least two documents ("Onofio" instead of "Onofrio") will not cause a problem?

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby mler » 29 Jul 2008, 22:49

Remember the NARA documents were accepted in NY. All the consulates are different, so you'll need to check with LA.

Secondly, when you sign the "Declaration of Living Ascendent," you attest that you never renounced your citizenship, thus continuing the line through which your son is applying. Your birth certificate will indeed be registered in the comune, BUT only your son will have his citizenship recognized. You will need to submit your own application in Chicago. However, your son's acceptance through your line, will speed up the process for you.

Another option is to submit both applications at the same time. Then when one is accepted, the second will move through quickly. This involves, however, a double set of documents.

The misspelling you note seems an obvious typo of a given name. It should not cause you too much difficulty unless you get a consular official on a bad day.

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby pnovembre » 30 Jul 2008, 20:06

Thanks for the advice. Your earlier comment about NYC efficiency (or lack thereof!) is coming through. Although it's hit and miss. My parent's marriage certificate made it in less than two weeks. I'm still waiting for my father's birth certificate after six weeks. Then I have to begin the Apostille process with two mailings. One to NY County and then to NY State. I expect that will take a few months. I think my real delay will be my grandfather's death certificate from NJ. They project service in 16(!!!) weeks. Then I have to get through the NJ Apostille excercise.

Thanks again, Pete

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Re: Jure Sanguinis

Postby mler » 30 Jul 2008, 20:23

The reason your father's birth certificate is taking so long is that older documents are not kept in the same place as the more recent ones. They need to forward a request to another facility. But don't worry; it will get to you fairly soon.

The county notarization and apostille should take very little time--maybe two weeks for each from the time you mail it.


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