Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

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Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby mporta66 » 16 Jun 2009, 19:57

I need some help trying to sort this out:

My grandmother was Beatrice Fortuntato, born Sept. 17, 1906 in the town of San Nazzaro val Cavargna, province of Como, Italy.

She was an orphan, born out of wedlock to a woman named Giovannina Rossi. My grandmother always told us the story that a few days after she was born, her mother left her at the doors of the town hall. She was later claimed by her mother’s sister, Maria Rossi, who raised her. I never had any reason to doubt this, my grandmother always told it as if it was a matter of fact, she kept in contact with various relatives back in Italy throughout her life. We even have a lovely old photo of the great-grandmother Giovannina Rossi that my grandmother brought with her from Italy! We were told that Giovannina was a widow at the time of my grandmother’s birth, and that she got remarried after my grandmother was born, but my grandmother never lived with her.

I was always under the impression that grandma was embarrassed by the circumstances of her birth.

I never had any reason to question any of this, until I started researching the family history a couple years ago.

I got quite a surprise last year when I obtained a copy of my grandmother’s birth record from the town hall in San Nazzaro, because it listed her parents as “unknown!â€

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby suanj » 16 Jun 2009, 20:26

Giovannina Rossi, farmer, in own house, helped the woman in the birthchild;
after the birthact, the civil records officer wrote that the Mrs Domenica Moretti put the baby girl in the Como Orphanage...
no more details on the birthact... maybe the real mother could be a sister of Giovannina Rossi, or maybe just she....
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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 16 Jun 2009, 21:27

This was a common situation, the baby born to unmarried parents is left at the doors of the neighbor, the church, the town hall, it was very common in Italy, but every situation was unique and sometimes you will have a clue of the parents or the mother, from a family story, or from some detail on the birth act.

In these situations, the parents are almost always written “unknown,â€

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby mporta66 » 16 Jun 2009, 22:08

So, is there someway to verify for sure that my grandmother was truly the daughter of Giovannina Rossi (as she always claimed to be)???

Are there records in Italy for orphans, where I could find some more information?

My grandmother also told us that she knew her mother's mother, she said her name was Jacomina Rossi, and she lived near my grandmother in San Nazzaro. Jacomina died when my grandmother was in her teens, in the early 1920s. Jacomina's husband was named Giovanni Rossi, but my grandmother never knew him.

And my grandmother was married in San Nazzaro in 1929, would her marriage record list her parents names even if they aren't listed on her birth record?

I need to know where I can find the documents I need to verify my grandmother's family.

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby Michael31 » 16 Jun 2009, 23:42

mporta66 wrote:So, is there someway to verify for sure that my grandmother was truly the daughter of Giovannina Rossi (as she always claimed to be)???

Are there records in Italy for orphans, where I could find some more information?

My grandmother also told us that she knew her mother's mother, she said her name was Jacomina Rossi, and she lived near my grandmother in San Nazzaro. Jacomina died when my grandmother was in her teens, in the early 1920s. Jacomina's husband was named Giovanni Rossi, but my grandmother never knew him.

And my grandmother was married in San Nazzaro in 1929, would her marriage record list her parents names even if they aren't listed on her birth record?

I need to know where I can find the documents I need to verify my grandmother's family.

www.paginebianche.it
cognome: Beatrice dove: CO
cognome: Fortunato dove: CO or 22010
cognome: Rossi dove: San Nazzaro val Cavargna or 22010

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 17 Jun 2009, 00:32

No, there is no record you can find that will help you verify that your grandmother "Beatrice Fortunato" was truly the daughter of "Giovannina Rossi," because Beatrice was a trovatella, therefore the names of her parents are suppressed on the birth act, and all the acts that follow (matrimonio, morte). The names of the parents will not appear on any records, not her marriage act, not anywhere because the laws of Italy allowed the names of the parents to always be suppressed.

Even if Beatrice knows the name of her true mother, she cannot tell this name on her marriage act, it is not allowed.

However, in your situation, you have the family story that Beatrice was the daughter of Giovannina Rossi, and on the birth act it says that Giovannina presented the child to the comune in order to have the birth registered. Also, you said that Beatrice was raised by the sister of Giovannina, and she knew her grandmother Giacomina (this is the correct spelling, you have "Jacomina).

So although you can not verify the mother of Beatrice in the civil records of Italy, you have some other evidence to say that her mother is Giovannina Rossi, and for this you are fortunate because often there is no trace of the parents names of the trovatelli from these times!

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby mporta66 » 17 Jun 2009, 12:55

I guess I don’t understand why the parents names would be left off the birth records. Are you saying that the officials did this deliberately, so that the parents didn’t have to take any responsibility for the baby??? I mean, I can understand if the baby is left on the doorstep or something, and no one knows where it came from, but it doesn’t make sense to me that the mother or her midwife would bring the baby to the town hall and then they would put unknown for the parents names! How do you hide the fact that you are having a baby anyway? One day the girl next door is pregnant, and the next day she isn’t and a baby shows up on the doorsteps? Isn’t it obvious who the baby belonged to?

OK, so it sounds like in my case, I just have to take my grandmother’s word about who her mother was? I was hoping there would be some kind of record from the town, but it doesn’t sound like I’m going to find anything like that. I feel sad about this, like my grandmother’s existence wasn’t even important when they filled out her birth record, they just said she was unknown. Even though she knew who her mom was, and her mom’s family, this is really sad to me, like she was a secret or something.

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby suanj » 17 Jun 2009, 13:59

here the marriage banner of 28 sep 1879 abt Giovanni Rossi (age 27) and Giacomina Rossi (age 22)

http://s5.imagestime.com/out.php/i36998 ... banner.jpg

marriage 2 oct 1879..

they had this child:
Como e Lecco, Lombardia, Italia: Registri di stato civile, 1866-1936 Como and Lecco, Lombardia, Italy, Civil Registration Records, 1866-1936
about Giuseppe Cirillo Giovanni Rossi
Name: Giuseppe Cirillo Giovanni Rossi
Father: Giovanni Rossi
Mother: Giacomina Rossi
Record Type: Nascita
Date: 31 dic 1894 (31 Dec 1894)
City: San Nazzaro Val Cavargna
County: Como
Country: Italia (Italy)

no more infos..
but Giacomina Rossi ( daughter of Pietro Rossi and Maria Butti) died when 65 old, the 25 oct 1922...
she was born the 14 oct 1857...
Giovanni Rossi died the 17 sep 1927...
maybe can help, best regards,
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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby suanj » 17 Jun 2009, 14:10

E comparso ROSSI GIOVANINNA di Giovanni, di anni ventisei, contadina, domicilicata in S. Nazzaro, quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore dieci e minuti ----

I read not "E comparso ROSSI GIOVANINNA di Giovanni, di anni ventisei, contadina, domicilicata in S. Nazzaro, quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore dieci e minuti ---- "

but I read :
E comparso ROSSI GIOVANINNA dichiarante( informant), di anni ventisei, contadina, domicilicata in S. Nazzaro, quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore dieci e minuti ----
Giovannina Rossi, maybe it was the sister or sister in law of Giacomina Rossi...????
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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby mporta66 » 17 Jun 2009, 14:50

Oh my goodness, thank you so much suanj!!!!

This is wonderful information, I always heard from my grandmother that her grandparents' names were: Giovanni Rossi and Giacomina Rossi.

Then, Giovanni and Giacomina had a daughter named Giovannina, born in 1880. And my grandmother Beatrice always told me that Giovannina was her mother, who gave her away when she was born.

Then, grandma Beatrice was claimed by her mother's sister: Maria Rossi, who was another daughter of Giovanni & Giacomina. My grandma was raised by Maria.

These are wonderful facts you sent me, they have brought tears to my eyes because I often heard my grandmother talk about these people. I feel sad for her situation, that she could not be recognized by her own mother.

Can you tell me suanj, was this common in Italy, where the baby could not be recognized by its own mother, even if the mother was known?

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby suanj » 17 Jun 2009, 15:21

it was common that a child born born from a unmarried woman, well it was abandoned... or if the child was born from a married woman, but her husband was not the father of child....
it is possible that Beatrice was the daughter of some Giacomina's daughters.... and Giovanni Rossi no wanted the baby girl, because was no a honor.... also because if some Giovanni's daughter recognized the child, nobody marriage in future .. for she... so needing of to know abt Giovanni daughters, if someone was married or not in 1906....
so Giovannina Rossi was the daughter of Giacomina and Giovanni Rossi? Giovannina Rossi had a sister: Maria?
It is probable that Maria was beatrice mother... because I cannot think that a woman, after a birthchild can to go in town hall and to say: I found a baby etc... so it is possible that Maria was at home and Giovannina helped in that...
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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby suanj » 17 Jun 2009, 15:34

maybe this is or Giovannina, or Maria second marriage:
Como e Lecco, Lombardia, Italia: Registri di stato civile, 1866-1936 Como and Lecco, Lombardia, Italy, Civil Registration Records, 1866-1936
about Giovannina Maria Rossi
Name: Giovannina Maria Rossi ( born in Biandrate)
Birth Year: abt 1879
Father: Giovanni
Mother: Giacomina Rossi
Spouse: Gio Battista Frigerio ( Error: Gio Battista Bralla right.. I found many errors in the transcription of this database)
Record Type: Matrimonio
Date: 8 dic 1919 (8 Dec 1919)
City: San Nazzaro Val Cavargna
County: Como
Country: Italia (Italy)

Giovannina Maria was widow... age 40

http://s5.imagestime.com/out.php/i37001 ... arossi.jpg
so by your memories: or Giovannina and Maria was the same person or different persons( sisters)
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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby suanj » 17 Jun 2009, 15:39

they was diffrent persons: here the marriage of Maria:
Como e Lecco, Lombardia, Italia: Registri di stato civile, 1866-1936 Como and Lecco, Lombardia, Italy, Civil Registration Records, 1866-1936
about Maria Rossi
Name: Maria Rossi
Birth Year: abt 1880 ( b. 19 july 1880-Biandrate, Italy)
Father: Giovanni
Mother: Giacomina Rossi
Spouse: Giacomo Saglio (NO BUTTI Giacomo true name, other error... please read the original document)
Record Type: Matrimonio
Date: 21 feb 1909
City: San Nazzaro Val Cavargna
County: Como
Country: Italia (Italy)
http://s5.imagestime.com/out.php/i370013_mariarossi.jpg
so she was unmarried when Beatrice born.....
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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby mporta66 » 17 Jun 2009, 15:53

Thanks suanj, I really appreciate your knowledge!!!!

I never thought of this possibility, that Beatrice was the daughter of Maria. I do know that Beatrice was very close to Maria, and that Maria raised her like a daughter. But my grandmother always said that Maria was her aunt, her mother’s sister. Also, I know that Maria was never married. I also heard that Giovannina was a widow at the time that Beatrice was born. After that, Giovannina got remarried to a man named “Gio-batta Brallia.â€

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Re: Beatrice Fortunato - 1906 - San Nazzaro - NEED HELP!

Postby mporta66 » 17 Jun 2009, 16:04

YES!!! That name BUTTI!!!! You have the right family, because now I do remember that Maria had a husband called BUTTI!

But something happened to Butti, I don't remember, he was not a nice man, and they did not have any children. Maria did not stay with Butti, I don't remember the whole story.

I looks like some of the dates I told you were off by a couple years, because it looks now like Giovannina was born in 1879 (I had 1880) and Maria in 1880 (I had 1882). Thanks for sending me the correct information!

How can you find this information so quickly? This is wonderful, you have brought me to tears with all this.


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