Noble Mystery, GGrandmother--who were you???

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Noble Mystery, GGrandmother--who were you???

Postby VickiSalvoni » 07 Jan 2004, 03:54

My dad and his mother's side of the family are all dead as far as I know. All I have is a family story. All I want to know is the name of my great grandparents. I don't need a title, just the answer to a long time family mystery.

Here is what I know:

She was my father's grandmother. She was supposedly of the Italian Nobility. Her parents presented her with a $900 hand-beaded gown around the 1890's for her "coming out" party. She was quoted as having said, "YOU EXPECT ME TO WEAR THIS?!?!" and then shredded the dress with her bare hands.

Some time after that she met and married a Roman commoner and was disowned by her family. She and her husband, his last name was Gini, came to Chicago and opened up an ice cream factory. They returned to Italy to live "like princes and thumb their noses at her family because of the riches they were getting from the ice cream," until the money stopped coming and they returned to Chicago to investigate. They found the ice cream factory boarded up. The business partner, possibly his relative, had run off with the money and left them penniless. My grandmother ended up begging on the streets of Chicago as a child. which would have been around 1903-05.

My GGrandmother had 3 children, two of whom were said to have learning disabilities of some sort. My grandmother, born Adele Bernadette Gini in 1898, she was named after my GGrandmother's best friend (Adele, I'm guessing). But after her birth, they had a terrible falling out and my grandmother's name was changed to Mary Bernadette. Mary was the name of their horse, and her mother said she'd rather have her child named after the horse than her former friend.

I have been researching my brains out and the closest I can get is to an ice cream factory in 1902 in Chicago called Giovan Brothers. I have no idea if this was the one. I've been to the Ellis Island database and found two possible "suspects" listed as Angelo and Vittoria Gini, ages 31 and 26 in 1904. That would make her birth year around 1877-79. They list their home town as Monteforte, which from another posting here, sounds very similar to a noble family name. My GGrandfather was supposedly from Rome, so it wouldn't have been his home town but it could have been hers.

Could she have been Vittoria Monforte and they spelled it wrong on the ship? Or is Monforte the surname and Monteforte the town in which they lived? So many questions, so few clues.

That's all I know. If you have heard any stories like this, please let me know.

Thank you,
Vicki (Salvoni) Kent
Near Portland, Oregon
USA

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Postby ptimber » 07 Jan 2004, 05:15

I am very sorry that your story, though very interesting , leaves little for genealogy research. Perhaps you might wish to read the genealogy book Italian Genealogical Records by Traffor R. Cole whichis an easy read and will let you research your family with good results. Peter

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Re: Noble Mystery, GGrandmother--who were you???

Postby suanj » 07 Jan 2004, 07:22

VickiSalvoni wrote:My dad and his mother's side of the family are all dead as far as I know. All I have is a family story. All I want to know is the name of my great grandparents. I don't need a title, just the answer to a long time family mystery.

Here is what I know:

She was my father's grandmother. She was supposedly of the Italian Nobility. Her parents presented her with a $900 hand-beaded gown around the 1890's for her "coming out" party. She was quoted as having said, "YOU EXPECT ME TO WEAR THIS?!?!" and then shredded the dress with her bare hands.

Some time after that she met and married a Roman commoner and was disowned by her family. She and her husband, his last name was Gini, came to Chicago and opened up an ice cream factory. They returned to Italy to live "like princes and thumb their noses at her family because of the riches they were getting from the ice cream," until the money stopped coming and they returned to Chicago to investigate. They found the ice cream factory boarded up. The business partner, possibly his relative, had run off with the money and left them penniless. My grandmother ended up begging on the streets of Chicago as a child. which would have been around 1903-05.

My GGrandmother had 3 children, two of whom were said to have learning disabilities of some sort. My grandmother, born Adele Bernadette Gini in 1898, she was named after my GGrandmother's best friend (Adele, I'm guessing). But after her birth, they had a terrible falling out and my grandmother's name was changed to Mary Bernadette. Mary was the name of their horse, and her mother said she'd rather have her child named after the horse than her former friend.

I have been researching my brains out and the closest I can get is to an ice cream factory in 1902 in Chicago called Giovan Brothers. I have no idea if this was the one. I've been to the Ellis Island database and found two possible "suspects" listed as Angelo and Vittoria Gini, ages 31 and 26 in 1904. That would make her birth year around 1877-79. They list their home town as Monteforte, which from another posting here, sounds very similar to a noble family name. My GGrandfather was supposedly from Rome, so it wouldn't have been his home town but it could have been hers.

Could she have been Vittoria Monforte and they spelled it wrong on the ship? Or is Monforte the surname and Monteforte the town in which they lived? So many questions, so few clues.

That's all I know. If you have heard any stories like this, please let me know.

Thank you,
Vicki (Salvoni) Kent
Near Portland, Oregon
USA

Hi: (excuse my english).. perhaps can to interest, are an Gini family final destination Chicago, emigrated 27 january 1882, ship Amerique, port of departure :Le Havre -France, profession merchant, coming from..unknown, this are the names:
Assunta Gini female age 29
Fedela Gini daughter age 6
Lazzaro Gini male age 29
I normally understand that there is difference of date between 1882 and 1890, but the Italians who emigrated went in town where relatives were they...

More Angelo Gini(your suspect) coming from Delebbio(Como province-Lombardia region). In como are historic presence Gini's surname... but very far of Rome...Monteforte is a town, are 2 town called: Monteforte Cilento-Campania region, and Monteforte d'Albona-Veneto region....I not task these your relatives..
But between all Gini emigrated, are only 2 Gini person coming from Rome area:
1 coming from san Vittore-Frosinone-Lazio region :Giuseppe Gini final destination Chicago, also if emigrated in 1910, can to be an trace:

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/shipM ... 0198%2ETIF
2-coming from Acquapendente(Viterbo province-Lazio region), Giuseppe Gini, final destination not clearly...:

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/shipM ... 0785%2ETIF
If your relatives in 1902 have ice cream factory, they are emigrated before 1902 or max in 1902.... regards, suanj

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Postby suanj » 07 Jan 2004, 16:29

Hi: this are some noble's surnames of Rome area:
Orsini, Orsini del Balzo, Bobone, Salomoni, Alberteschi, Savelli, Colonna, Quattrocchi, Marcelli, Cenci, Cadorna, Crescenzi, Falconieri, Machiavelli, Minucci, Sacchetti, Vettori...perhaps can to help, regards, suanj

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Postby suanj » 08 Jan 2004, 10:44

Reply your private message on Clementina Lenci:
CLEMENTINA LENCI
Female


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: DANIEL GINI
Marriage: 21 AUG 1895 , Cook, Illinois

-----------------------------------------------------------
Gini family( Daniele-merchant & Clementina age 39 in 1905...born in 1866 not 1861???? and sons: Livia, Negria, Francesco not are Adele Bernadette:::?)coming from Lucca(Toscana), final destination Chicago, they went from brother Gini.....to Chicago (is address also.....):is this your relatives???

http://www.ellisisland.org/search/shipM ... 2458040545

I have found a testament of 1873 of a Annunciata Lenci from Lucca, than being died its three sons before of she (names:Italico, Vincenzo Epaminonda, Polissena), donates its wealth to to an Riccardo Cerri (friend of its Italico son) and to an Vincenzo Lenci relative. This means sure that Lenci family was rich.

Are 1 record from noble Lenci family, origin's place Spello(Perugia province-Umbria region, near Toscana region)..
Currently are this Lenci persons in Lucca:http://paginebianche.virgilio.it/pb/cerca?btt=1&no=&cg=Lenci&dv=Lucca&prv=LU&tdv=3&cc=47600&
and Gini persons in Lucca:
http://paginebianche.virgilio.it/pb/cer ... &cc=47600&


regards, suanj

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Postby suanj » 08 Jan 2004, 11:10

noble family in Lucca surname Petrini(maiden name Clementina's mother):
PETRINI
maine residence: Lucca


Fonti bibliografiche Archivio VSp (archive of document)
surname Relatives: DE MAGISTRIS

Noble's title: Patrizio
More in "Archivio di Stato di Lucca" not is mentioned Lenci family, but Petrini family; documents on this family are in documents Bechini and Petrini families(Bechini /Petrini, from 1833- to 1936, docc.28. Inventario manoscritto n. 88)http://archivi.beniculturali.it/ASLU/patrimonio/Pag1.html

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Postby VickiSalvoni » 08 Jan 2004, 20:24

Me: Victoria Ann Salvoni (1956/San Francisco)
Father: Arthur Henry Salvoni (1924/San Francisco)
Grandmother: Name at Birth was Negria Gini (1898/Chicago?) later changed to Mary Bernadette after 1905 return to America from Lucca.Great Grandmother: Clementina Lenci (1861/Italy)
Great Grandfather: Daniele Gini (1864/Italy)
Great Great Grandmother: _________ Petrini (????/Italy)
Great Great Grandfather: Vincenzo? Lenci (????/Italy)
Great Great Great Grandmother: Assunta Lenci? (????/Italy) will & testament dated 1873


That is what I think I know so far. Daniele and Clementina came to America and then got married. They probably married the same year they arrived.

Brothers of Daniele were George (American name) Gini who lived in Chicago in 1904. Another brother was Louis who lived in Chicago as of 1910. They were all listed as "confectioners" and were probably owners of Giovan Brothers, makers of ice cream. One of the business partners, either the brothers or perhaps a trusted friend, stole all the money and closed the factory while my GGrandparents were in Italy, living back in Lucca.

Now I need to find a Gini family that had sons that age at that time with those names or some Italian version of the names.

Isn't this fun? I'd like to figure out the Petrini tie to the minister of war to see if that is the Petrini nobility tie. It seems from your findings that Lenci may have been a banking family, perhaps patrician in origin. I will have to try and link the Lucca Lenci living relatives to Clementina and see if any have ever heard of her.

Thank you so much for all of your help. You are a wonderful person!

Vicki

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Postby ptimber » 08 Jan 2004, 20:53

Look Suanj is top drawer and knows her onions but if you go to www.google.com and put in Chocolates by GINI you will see 1,600 references to that title. Just a thought. Peter

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Postby VickiSalvoni » 08 Jan 2004, 21:44

And a great thought it was. The Chocolates by Gini are in Chicago. It's a bit too coincidental. I've sent a message to them to see who they are. Thanks so much for the idea!

Louis moved to SF, married Lillie and had a son named Guido who was 4 in 1920 and in the SF area. But what is really creepy is that my grandmother's sister's name was Livia, changed to Lillie, and the Lillie that Louis married was the same age at the same time. Someone tell me they weren't cousins!! I already found out that my grandmother's brother (and Lillie's brother) was in a home for the developmentally disabled until he died in 1965.

**Sigh**

Vicki

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Postby suanj » 08 Jan 2004, 21:49

Hi Vicki, I do not know if Vincenzo Lenci and Annunciata(not Assunta) Lenci is your relatives. The testament that I have transcribed wanted to only indicate that they were rich persons (if they make testament wants to say that they have riches). Moreover Annunciata it is listed between the womens patriot of Lucca. I do not know if there is a degree of relationship with Clementina. Probable, but I do not know. Sure Annunciata not was mother of Clementina(Annunciata 's sons died youngs). The surname of Annunciata is Lenci, surname Clementina' s mother is Petrini. The Petrini family is noble family in Lucca. Perhaps we will find other....Regards, suanj

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Postby suanj » 09 Jan 2004, 05:50

Hi Vicki: for better search, you demand marriage's certificate of Clementina Lenci and Daniele Gini of 21 AUG 1895 , in Cook- Illinois .. In this certificate sure are many util info for you.. exact birth date, and their parents...then in Italy is continued the search...regards, suanj

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Brilliant idea!

Postby VickiSalvoni » 09 Jan 2004, 06:32

I'm going to request that right away! I also have a bilingual cousin in Milan who can help me when we come to visit Lucca in March. I'm so excited! I'd like to see her childhood home.

I've found now the name of some Lucca Lenci's that came through Ellis Island to see who they might have been.

Thank you again for your help!

Vicki (Vittoria Anna Salvoni, my other side of the family was also from Lucca/Lammari)

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Postby suanj » 09 Jan 2004, 11:27

Hi Vicki: in fact on ellis island, on Daniele Gini's ship manifest 1905 are US citizen...Daniele Gini already it had gone in USA in 1887, look:

Cognome(surname)
GINI

Nome
DANIELE

Età
24

Sesso
M

Professione
CULTIVATOR

Istruzione
U

Luogo di origine(place of origin: U= unknown)
U

Destinazione(destination)
USA

Visto
Emigrante

Classe
Ponte

Porto d'imbarco(port of departure)
HAVRE

Nave(ship)
LA GASCOGNE

Data d'arrivo(date of arrival)
4/4/1887


source: Fondazione Agnelli-Italyregards, suanj

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Re: Noble Mystery, GGrandmother--who were you???

Postby nunzio123 » 29 Jul 2007, 18:21

VickiSalvoni wrote:My dad and his mother's side of the family are all dead as far as I know. All I have is a family story. All I want to know is the name of my great grandparents. I don't need a title, just the answer to a long time family mystery.

Here is what I know:

She was my father's grandmother. She was supposedly of the Italian Nobility. Her parents presented her with a $900 hand-beaded gown around the 1890's for her "coming out" party. She was quoted as having said, "YOU EXPECT ME TO WEAR THIS?!?!" and then shredded the dress with her bare hands.

Some time after that she met and married a Roman commoner and was disowned by her family. She and her husband, his last name was Gini, came to Chicago and opened up an ice cream factory. They returned to Italy to live "like princes and thumb their noses at her family because of the riches they were getting from the ice cream," until the money stopped coming and they returned to Chicago to investigate. They found the ice cream factory boarded up. The business partner, possibly his relative, had run off with the money and left them penniless. My grandmother ended up begging on the streets of Chicago as a child. which would have been around 1903-05.

My GGrandmother had 3 children, two of whom were said to have learning disabilities of some sort. My grandmother, born Adele Bernadette Gini in 1898, she was named after my GGrandmother's best friend (Adele, I'm guessing). But after her birth, they had a terrible falling out and my grandmother's name was changed to Mary Bernadette. Mary was the name of their horse, and her mother said she'd rather have her child named after the horse than her former friend.

I have been researching my brains out and the closest I can get is to an ice cream factory in 1902 in Chicago called Giovan Brothers. I have no idea if this was the one. I've been to the Ellis Island database and found two possible "suspects" listed as Angelo and Vittoria Gini, ages 31 and 26 in 1904. That would make her birth year around 1877-79. They list their home town as Monteforte, which from another posting here, sounds very similar to a noble family name. My GGrandfather was supposedly from Rome, so it wouldn't have been his home town but it could have been hers.

Could she have been Vittoria Monforte and they spelled it wrong on the ship? Or is Monforte the surname and Monteforte the town in which they lived? So many questions, so few clues.

That's all I know. If you have heard any stories like this, please let me know.

Thank you,
Vicki (Salvoni) Kent
Near Portland, Oregon
USA

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Re: Noble Mystery, GGrandmother--who were you???

Postby VickiSalvoni » 24 Feb 2008, 18:27

Well, we have some information since my last posting. Clementina died in Alameda from complications of diabetes melitis, a common side effect of begin allergic to gluten. My aunt died last year of the same thing. Another side effect is heart disease, which killed Clementina's daughter (my grandmother). Since 1 in 80 Italians have this allergy, it figures now I have it and so do my children. So you Italians, educate yourselves on gluten intolerance!!

More info is also that Daniele died in San Francisco in 1928, which closes that issue.

I've been "found" by a Gini cousin and we are working hard to figure out that line and have it pretty clear now. Daniele and Lazarro Gini had an ice cream store in Chicago on Milwaukee street in 1902 called Giovan Brothers. Then in 1903 they were in Lucca and my great uncle Frank was born there. In 1905 they came back and the store was closed down, and we surmise it might have been organized crime that shut them down. It was close to the SF earthquake time frame when the government needed workers to rebuild the town, and that may have been the reason they moved to San Francisco.

As for Daniele being Roman, NOT. He was born in Guamo, in Lucca, south of the city of Lucca. Some "southern" reference, ha! Since he was a cultivator when he emigrated, that tracks to the "peasant" reference. She was gentry, he was a farmer. But if the photo we found is of him, I can see why she would have been captivated because he was VERY cute!!! Looks just like my son (age 9). Aren't genetics wonderful?

Rafaella, I hope you are still reading this! I did get their marriage license and it didn't show me a thing. Her death certificate, which I also have now, listed a different maternal surname in the mix and I haven't figured that out yet. I will have to have help in Italy before I'll ever figure this out. My aunt, my last living Gini relative, died before I could find her and all of her things were tossed out in the garbage! No photos, NOTHING. I cried. There is nobody left who can look at the photos that my newly found cousins have to tell us if they are photos of my family. The only hope I have is that the Guamo relatives might know and that someday I might be able to afford to fly there.

Aaaaahhhhh, money is such an ugly necessity.

-Vicki


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