Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'm so

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Squigy
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Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'm so

Postby Squigy » 10 Jan 2010, 05:29

What really got me into genealogy was trying to find out who my great great grandmother's biological parents were. I've gotten tons of hints since then, and have a few hunches, but nothing concrete. I am now turning to unbiased judges as my own judgement is cloudy. Ok, here is what I know: My GGGrandmother was born in the comune of Campobasso, Italy in (or around) the year 1889. Now here is what my family was told: She was born under the name Elisa Grimandi or Grimani (they could never tell which it was because their father was missing his front teeth) Her father was a wealthy man who inherited a lot of castles and buildings, and her grandfather was mayor of Campobasso, as was her grandfather's son. They were also told that Elisa was illegitimate. Now, when living in Italy, Elisa didn't live with her father. She was put in the care of a family named D'Andrea, who recently lost a child. I hear this is what is commonly done in Italy with illegitimate children. She did however visit her father, and remembered him as being affectionate, but her mother didn't seem to care for her (I'm almost positive the reason for this was that her father's wife wasn't her mother). Now here are a few things worth pointing out. Elisa's second son was name Andrew Anthony. Andrea was the name of her adoptive father, and my theory is Antonio was the name of her biological father (I hear it is common for Italians to name the first sons and daughters after parents) Another thing I think is that Filomena D'Andrea (Elisa's adoptive mother) might actually have been her biological mother. Here is why, #1 I have a picture of Filomena and Elisa, and there is an obvious family resemblance. #2 Filomena's child who recently died was named Giovannina, which is what she renamed Elisa to. I think maybe the child that died was in fact Elisa.
And #3 Elisa remembered on her visits to her father Filomena arguing with her biological father about who got to keep her. Very iffy, I know. Anyway, please tell me what you make of this situation, and bear in mind that I know these are only theories that will lead me to proof in records. I thank anyone (if anyone) who responds for your patience.


P.S. let me know if you want me to post the picture of Elisa and Filomena.
My Italian surnames:

Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone

Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile

Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby Squigy » 10 Jan 2010, 05:31

Oh, and one more thing. With the help of John Armellino, I found out that the name Grimaldi is common in Campobasso, and there were several mayors with that name. I'm guessing this was her father's name.
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 10 Jan 2010, 16:14

You should obtain a copy of the complete birth act of Elisa. This will give you some informations about the circumstances of her birth and maybe give you some more clues for the parents. Sometimes the mother is named, sometimes not. Sometime the father is named and no mother, and sometime no parents are named. All situations are different with the illegitimate baby.

The father of Elisa would have no right to her unless he officially recognized her as his natural child, and this would be notated on her birth act. It seems strange to me that he would want to keep her as you say, but did not recognize her officially, very unusual.

What was the surname Elisa used when she came to the U.S.?

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby pink67 » 10 Jan 2010, 16:19

Hi Squigy ...

This is just my opinion....

Considering the arrival manifest for Elisa:

Image

her lastname is clearly Clemanni... Looks like very strange to me the officers misundertanded so much the surname from Grimaldi/Grimani to Clemanni...

I believe the birth record John Armellino found for you shoulbe the right one:

JohnArmellino wrote:Hi Squigy

My FHC finally reopened after 11 weeks. Hallelujah! I checked the birth records for 1889 and did not find a record for either Elisa Grimaldi and/or Elisa Clemani. However, I did find a birth record for a Rosa Clemini. She was a proietta. She was found outside the ruota dei proietti on 20 MAR 1889. She was a few days old and was dressed in diapers. She was not left with a token or other sign of identification in case the parent(s) wished to reclaim her. She was given into the care of Giovanna Clari (as wetnurse), wife of Michelangelo Leccese. Source: FHL Film 1733191, NATI 1889, Parte II, No. 28, 20 MAR 1889.


Which is the birth date Elisa used in the U.S. documents?

Laura

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby Squigy » 10 Jan 2010, 23:49

Hi guys, thanks for the replys. I think Elisa was born on Sep 13, so the Rosa Clemini birth record is a bit off. I've been thinking, and I believe the only way to solve this is to go to my FHC and order CB records, so I can go through them and find a name that rings a bell. I've been thinking of way too many possibilites with next to no records. Last time it was a bit complicated as the volunteers didn't seem to know how to use the microfilm, but we can figure it out. I'll keep you posted. Again, thanks for replying, sorry for wasting your time. :oops:
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby pink67 » 11 Jan 2010, 07:49

Squigy,

do you have (for example) Elisa's child birth act? or , if her husband was naturalized do you have his naturalization papers? It is possible you'll be able to find others leads on these documents as maiden name or birth date...
Maybe also check the Sepino's civil registration should be a good idea....are you absolutely sure she was born in Campobasso town?

Laura

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 12 Jan 2010, 13:23

Delete duplicate

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 12 Jan 2010, 13:30

There are some curious similarities with the Rosa Clemani information and that of your Elisa Clemanni (Grimandi/Grimani, ecc.).

Remember also in your searches that if your great-great grandmother was an illegitimate baby, she will not have the surname of her father on her birth act, she will have the surname of a trovatella that was given to her by the town officials, or possibly the surname of her mother (but only if her mother recognized her officially as her natural daughter).

You must try not to be distracted by too many theories or stories, it is vital to your search to find the birth act so that you will have some documentable information. Perhaps some details on the birth act will support the stories you hear in you family, then you will have a reasonable explanation for the history of your great-great grandmother.

It is a very difficult search for the origins of "i trovatelli." We hope for the best!

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby pink67 » 12 Jan 2010, 13:40

I totally agree with you Maurizio.... :D

Laura

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby Squigy » 13 Jan 2010, 00:03

Laura: I plan on getting my great grandfather (Elisa's son's) birth record next week. I'm hoping it has her maiden name on it. I am also planning on getting her husbands's naturalization record; I really think that might have her birth name. She may have been born in Sepino, but seeing as Campobasso is so close, I didn't really give it much thought.

Maurizio: Rosa Clemini might be her, but I'm not sure. I'll try and find out Elisa's date of birth.


Thank you both for your advice, I'll let you know if I find anything.
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 14 Jan 2010, 14:03

The pursuit of the naturalization record and the birth act of the son may provide some clues however you must consider that these will be U.S. records and therefore may reflect an inaccurate version of your great-great grandmother surname. But you should have these records for your research anyway.

You must obtain the original birth act of your great-great grandmother in order to know her surname of birth, really is the best way to verify the facts of her situation as well. I really think you can know some facts when you find it, or perhaps you can verify that the act for Rosa Clemani pertain to your ancestor. You have this record, who presented Rosa to the town official? If no the midwife, sometimes there is a clue for the parent household.

I wish you much luck in your searches!

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby Squigy » 09 Feb 2010, 05:13

Hi, guys. I just noticed something funny on Elisa's immigration record. She is coming over on Sept 08 1903.......this would be 5 days before her 14th birthday (the manifest lists her as 15, but her birthday is Sept 13 1889). Anyway, I thought this was a little strange, especially since (according to John Armellino) proietti were usually given up at age 14. Anyway, as I said, I thought this was strange, and I wanted to see what you made of it.
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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pink67
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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby pink67 » 09 Feb 2010, 07:41

My grandfather was born on October 1892... He arrived in NYC on April 1913 and on the arrival manifest his age is 21 instead of 20....
He arrived 6 months before his 21th birthday...

Laura

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby Italysearcher » 09 Feb 2010, 13:10

Once the actual birthdate is passed most Italians (including my husband whose birthday is 10 days before mine, same year of birth) immediately add one year. He always states that he is one year older than me.
North Americans give the completed year as their age whereas Italians give the arriving year. So your Grandfather had had his 20th birthday and immediately became 21! Simple really. We see this in funeral announcements where it is often stated ' in his 21st year' meaning, he hadn't reached 21 yet.
Ann Tatangelo
http://angelresearch.wordpress.com
ANNOYING THE SAINTS - Stories of my Life in Italy. http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-b ... ly/7731505

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Re: Help with this genealogy puzzle. Very long post, I'

Postby pink67 » 09 Feb 2010, 13:22

You're right Ann!!
While reading your post I was remembering endless discussions between my father and his mother on this subject... every year at her birthday we were celebrating a "number" while she wanted to add one... :lol:

Laura


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