Foundling question?

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ajcris13
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Foundling question?

Postby ajcris13 » 14 May 2010, 16:12

I was told that my GGM was an orphan in Naples. She used the maiden name Rostino (an uncommon name) which I assumed was her adopted name. When I received a copy of her death certificate it listed her father as Luigi Pace and mother as Carmella (no last name). My GGF was the informant on the certificate.

Now I am totally confused. Are there any circumstances in that the parents name, especially the father, whould be included on any orphans' paperwork?

Looking for some thoughts on this subject.

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: Foundling question?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 14 May 2010, 16:18

Well, which definition of "orphan" are you using?

In common parlance, an orphan is a minor child of deceased parents. Wars often create orphans by the thousands, for example. Up until somewhat recent times, disease also left many children behind without their parents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan

Perhaps you are thinking of a true foundling/abandoned child. In this case, often no one knows the names of the child's parents.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

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ajcris13
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Re: Foundling question?

Postby ajcris13 » 14 May 2010, 17:02

Good point. What truly confused me was the family lore. The story told to me by my Great Aunt, was that my GGM (b. 1870) was a product of an affair between two married individuals. The mother superior of the orphanage refused to release the identity of the parents to my GGM or GGF. I take most family lore with a large grain of salt. Most of these family stories have proven to be false rather than true.

I had not taken into account that the true story might have been that the parents died. I remember reading that Naples had cholora epidemics up until the late 19th Century.

Thanks

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby Squigy » 15 May 2010, 10:25

If I may add; I have never heard of the name Rostino. If I'm not mistaken, this could be a name given to a proietta (foundling) by the mayor (or other official) of the town she was born in. Perhaps Luigi and Carmella Pace were the family who's care she was put into, but she went by the name given to her by the official. It is also possible she knew the names of her real parents, and listed them. Every case is different. Read this link to learn more about foundlings in Italy:

http://www.regalis.com/adopt.htm
My Italian surnames:

Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone

Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile

Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby Squigy » 15 May 2010, 10:28

ajcris13 wrote:Good point. What truly confused me was the family lore. The story told to me by my Great Aunt, was that my GGM (b. 1870) was a product of an affair between two married individuals. The mother superior of the orphanage refused to release the identity of the parents to my GGM or GGF. I take most family lore with a large grain of salt. Most of these family stories have proven to be false rather than true.
Thanks


I'm sorry, I didn't see this post. I would say the story told to you by your aunt is very possible. The parents were to remain anonymous if they chose to. At any rate, it definitely matches the pattern.
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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MaurizioPerrone
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Re: Foundling question?

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 15 May 2010, 15:40

Your great grandmother was a trovatella, an illegitimate child who was given by her mother to the orphanage probably at the day of her birth or maybe a few days later. Probably her parents were young (unmarry) or like your family story, they are married to some other person (maybe at least the father). Many possibility.

Yes, of course there are circumstance when the father name is included on the birth act, especially when the father recognize the child at some later time, even sometime many years later. Also there are times when the father will recognize the child and the mother will not (so the mother name is not on the birth act, it will say unknown mother or mother decline to put her name). There are many possibility.

Although the parent names are often not written on the birth act of the trovatelli, this does not mean that they did not know who their parents were, especially in small town or neighborhood. In Italy, it was impossible to record the parents name on the marriage or death act if the person was not recognize by the parents on the birth act (this is the law). But in U.S.A., it is no problem to put this informations so is possible the names on the death act of your great grandmother are the natural parents.

A person on this forum recently proved the family story of his trovatello ancestor with the DNA evidence, so do not completely disregard the family story. There is often some truth. You must continue to search for some evidences.

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby ajcris13 » 15 May 2010, 17:39

Thank you all for your thoughts, it has helped me greatly. I guess the next step is to get the records for Napoli. The one question that I have is, when a child is adopted in Italy, do they retain their name form the orphanage or do they take the name of their new family? The DNA test is very interesting and is an avenue that I should consider.

ps: squigy: I too have a Campobasso connection via my grandmother, she was from the diSoccio clan. Have you reached out for ditota (Albert DeTota) and or johnarmellino (John Armellino) on this site or the ancestry-message board? Both are distant cousins and have an extensive data base of the families of Campobasso. I know that John's data base is in excess of 70,000. Al's is also pretty well developed. They are both wonderful people and alway eager to help.

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby ricbru » 15 May 2010, 18:38

The name of parents on a foundling birth record, are about those who later adopted the baby.
I hope it helps
bye Riccardo

ajcris13 wrote:I was told that my GGM was an orphan in Naples. She used the maiden name Rostino (an uncommon name) which I assumed was her adopted name. When I received a copy of her death certificate it listed her father as Luigi Pace and mother as Carmella (no last name). My GGF was the informant on the certificate.

Now I am totally confused. Are there any circumstances in that the parents name, especially the father, whould be included on any orphans' paperwork?

Looking for some thoughts on this subject.

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby Squigy » 15 May 2010, 21:45

ajcris13 wrote:ps: squigy: I too have a Campobasso connection via my grandmother, she was from the diSoccio clan. Have you reached out for ditota (Albert DeTota) and or johnarmellino (John Armellino) on this site or the ancestry-message board? Both are distant cousins and have an extensive data base of the families of Campobasso. I know that John's data base is in excess of 70,000. Al's is also pretty well developed. They are both wonderful people and alway eager to help.


I don't know Albert, but I have been in contact with John. He has been very helpful in gathering the many pieces of my very confusing puzzle. In fact, I believe my Campobasso ancestor to be a foundling, too.
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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MaurizioPerrone
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Re: Foundling question?

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 15 May 2010, 23:59

ricbru wrote:The name of parents on a foundling birth record, are about those who later adopted the baby.


This is confusing statement, because in times from our grandparents in Italy it was very uncommon for foundling child (trovatello) to be "adopted." These children were often put in the house of some local family, maybe on the farm they would help and they would become a part of the the family, but never would they take the name of the family. Always they keep the name on their birth act. It was not "adoption" (legal process), it was only situation where the family take the child to raise in their home.

The names of the family who take the child to their farm, these names are not on the birth act of the foundling. On the foundling birth act it will say for the parents names "d'ignoti" (unknown parents), or maybe the name of the mother will be written and in some case the name of the father. There are many example, because with every situation the circumstance is different.

As I say before for previous message, none of this means that the child or someone does not know the name of the parents (sometimes, especially in small town for an example), but the law protects the privacy of the parent and frees them from legal accountability by allowing them to decline to be written on the birth act of their child.

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby Squigy » 16 May 2010, 00:57

MaurizioPerrone wrote:
ricbru wrote:The name of parents on a foundling birth record, are about those who later adopted the baby.


but never would they take the name of the family. Always they keep the name on their birth act. It was not "adoption" (legal process), it was only situation where the family take the child to raise in their home.


Are you sure of this? My great great grandmother (born in Campobasso) went by the surname D'Andrea until she got married (in America). Only on her immigration record did she go by her birth name.
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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MaurizioPerrone
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Re: Foundling question?

Postby MaurizioPerrone » 16 May 2010, 01:16

Squigy wrote:Are you sure of this? My great great grandmother (born in Campobasso) went by the surname D'Andrea until she got married (in America). Only on her immigration record did she go by her birth name.


Forgive me if I do not explain clearly. I will try again. The name on the birth act in Italy is always the official name, it is the law. In the case of the foundling, only if the mother (or the father) officially recognize the child through official act can the surname be change. This informations is all written on the original birth act as marginal note.

Yes, also if there is some official adoption (but very rare in times of our grandparents), then the child can use the name of the adopted family. The legal process of the adoption will be recorded as official act. Only after this can the child legally use the name of the adoption parents in Italy.

Of course, in U.S.A. it is a different story, your great-grandmother can do whatever she want for her name when she go there, because she is far away from the Italian law.

But in Italy, your great grandmother is always uses her name on her official birth act in the comune. She has no other choices, this was the law. I hope you can understand.

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby Squigy » 16 May 2010, 01:48

MaurizioPerrone wrote:
Squigy wrote:Are you sure of this? My great great grandmother (born in Campobasso) went by the surname D'Andrea until she got married (in America). Only on her immigration record did she go by her birth name.


Forgive me if I do not explain clearly. I will try again. The name on the birth act in Italy is always the official name, it is the law. In the case of the foundling, only if the mother (or the father) officially recognize the child through official act can the surname be change. This informations is all written on the original birth act as marginal note.

Yes, also if there is some official adoption (but very rare in times of our grandparents), then the child can use the name of the adopted family. The legal process of the adoption will be recorded as official act. Only after this can the child legally use the name of the adoption parents in Italy.

Of course, in U.S.A. it is a different story, your great-grandmother can do whatever she want for her name when she go there, because she is far away from the Italian law.

But in Italy, your great grandmother is always uses her name on her official birth act in the comune. She has no other choices, this was the law. I hope you can understand.


Oh, I see. Thank you for the clarification!
My Italian surnames:



Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone



Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile



Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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ajcris13
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Re: Foundling question?

Postby ajcris13 » 16 May 2010, 02:31

Thank you.

You answered many of my questions.

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Re: Foundling question?

Postby ricbru » 16 May 2010, 07:35

I recentrly experienced a couple of birth records (between 1870-1890) of foundling having, as annotation, the names of adopting parents.
bye Riccardo

MaurizioPerrone wrote:
Squigy wrote:Are you sure of this? My great great grandmother (born in Campobasso) went by the surname D'Andrea until she got married (in America). Only on her immigration record did she go by her birth name.


Forgive me if I do not explain clearly. I will try again. The name on the birth act in Italy is always the official name, it is the law. In the case of the foundling, only if the mother (or the father) officially recognize the child through official act can the surname be change. This informations is all written on the original birth act as marginal note.

Yes, also if there is some official adoption (but very rare in times of our grandparents), then the child can use the name of the adopted family. The legal process of the adoption will be recorded as official act. Only after this can the child legally use the name of the adoption parents in Italy.

Of course, in U.S.A. it is a different story, your great-grandmother can do whatever she want for her name when she go there, because she is far away from the Italian law.

But in Italy, your great grandmother is always uses her name on her official birth act in the comune. She has no other choices, this was the law. I hope you can understand.


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