A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

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A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 26 May 2010, 09:32

Hi everyone,

Apologies for inundating the board lately, but any advice/help would be truly welcomed! I have a bit of an odd family case, and I'm hoping someone could tell me if they think I'm eligible for jure sanguinis, father-->grandfather. N.B.: I'd be applying not through a US consulate, but at the comune here in Rome.

Here goes:
My grandfather, Grazio, was born in Italy in 1908. His father, Luigi, moved to the U.S. after Grazio's birth. In 1923, Luigi naturalized as a US citizen. He wrote down the names of his children, including Grazio, on his "Certificate of Naturalization." Therefore, I assume my grandfather was de facto naturalized as a minor through derivative naturalization (he was 14 at the time).

This should mean I'm ineligible, as my father was not born until 1946. HOWEVER. I've found something very odd: An Italian passport, issued for my grandfather, Grazio... in 1924. In other words, a year after his derivative US naturalization.

The only thing I can assume is that Luigi "fibbed" on his own naturalization form by saying his children were already in the U.S. when they weren't to get them naturalized, and that then Grazio, still in Italy, obtained his Italian passport after that so that he could come over on the boat to the U.S. and settle here.

But goodness. What on earth does this mean? It would imply to me that my grandfather remained, to the Italian government (which is what counts), an Italian/dual citizen, and that I should be eligible. But do you all agree? The only document I've found on my own so far (I've put in search requests but haven't heard back yet) is the "Certificate of Naturalization" of his father Luigi in 1923, and my father doesn't think that Grazio ever formally "renounced" his Italian citizenship after that or anything else.

Thanks so much!
Amanda

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby Squigy » 26 May 2010, 11:19

mervirgo wrote:Hi everyone,

Apologies for inundating the board lately, but any advice/help would be truly welcomed! I have a bit of an odd family case, and I'm hoping someone could tell me if they think I'm eligible for jure sanguinis, father-->grandfather. N.B.: I'd be applying not through a US consulate, but at the comune here in Rome.

Here goes:
My grandfather, Grazio, was born in Italy in 1908. His father, Luigi, moved to the U.S. after Grazio's birth. In 1923, Luigi naturalized as a US citizen. He wrote down the names of his children, including Grazio, on his "Certificate of Naturalization." Therefore, I assume my grandfather was de facto naturalized as a minor through derivative naturalization (he was 14 at the time).

This should mean I'm ineligible, as my father was not born until 1946. HOWEVER. I've found something very odd: An Italian passport, issued for my grandfather, Grazio... in 1924. In other words, a year after his derivative US naturalization.

The only thing I can assume is that Luigi "fibbed" on his own naturalization form by saying his children were already in the U.S. when they weren't to get them naturalized, and that then Grazio, still in Italy, obtained his Italian passport after that so that he could come over on the boat to the U.S. and settle here.

But goodness. What on earth does this mean? It would imply to me that my grandfather remained, to the Italian government (which is what counts), an Italian/dual citizen, and that I should be eligible. But do you all agree? The only document I've found on my own so far (I've put in search requests but haven't heard back yet) is the "Certificate of Naturalization" of his father Luigi in 1923, and my father doesn't think that Grazio ever formally "renounced" his Italian citizenship after that or anything else.

Thanks so much!
Amanda


I don't believe you would qualify. All that matters is that they see he was naturalized while your grandfather (born in Italy) was a minor, and so he would have been naturalized, too. If Grazio was naturalized legally, he would forfeit all citizenship rights in Italy, and thus could not pass it on to your father. I think an Italian living in Italy (even if he and his father were both naturalized US citizens) wouldn't have much trouble getting a passport.
My Italian surnames:

Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone

Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby johnnyonthespot » 26 May 2010, 11:31

Squigy wrote:I don't believe you would qualify. All that matters is that they see he was naturalized while your grandfather (born in Italy) was a minor, and so he would have been naturalized, too. If Grazio was naturalized legally, he would forfeit all citizenship rights in Italy, and thus could not pass it on to your father. I think an Italian living in Italy (even if he and his father were both naturalized US citizens) wouldn't have much trouble getting a passport.


Squigy - since I am the one who first raised this concern with Amanda, I have to say that, on the surface, I agree with you.

The thing I am not certain about however is the fact that grandfather was (appears to have been) still in Italy when his father naturalized in the US. I vaguley recall reading somewhere that under these conditions, minor children who were still in Italy retained their Italian citizenship; however it is possible that they would have become "instantly American" upon setting foot on US soil. This scenario definitely bears looking into.
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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 17 Aug 2010, 14:27

Hi all,
Yes. In fact, I did more digging, and it looks like when my great-grandfather Luigi naturalized, his son Grazio (my grandfather) was in Italy. I say that because Luigi naturalized on January 30 1923 (and this is the document that lists his minor children, although it does NOT appear to say explicitly that they're naturalized as well), but:

-his son, Grazio's, Italian passport was issued in January 1924;
-a certificate authorizing that Grazio was born in Pescina, Italy and is authorized for immigration was issued in November 1923;
-another form saying he's fit for immigration was issued from Pescina in July 1923;
and so on.

Grazio was born in Pescina, Italy in 1908. I can find no evidence of any separate naturalization form for him, or any act of renunciation of his Italian citizenship. (I've put in a request with USCIS but, four months later, am still waiting...)

What do you think?

Mandy

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby suanj » 17 Aug 2010, 15:15

It is very strange that Luigi naturalized and included the name of Grazio in naturalization( 1923); Grazio was not in USA until feb 1924, when he came with mother and sister, joining at Luigi in Rochester, NY;
Grazio was surely italian citizen at immigration time; for that he had the passport in 1924, otherwise he cannot go in foreign country.. the mother and Grazio as a well Annina sister never in USA before, so I cannot understand the Luigi naturalization...
the problem is in naturalization.. It was possible in a naturalization including also the people no immigrated and no residing in USA... I believe no possible.... you can insert here the Luigi naturalization?
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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby suanj » 17 Aug 2010, 15:27

again me:
in 1930 Grazio (George in USA in 1930) is ALIEN .. only Luigi( Louis) is naturalized
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3710 ... ggieri.jpg
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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 17 Aug 2010, 15:29

I agree. I do know that Luigi (the ggf) came to the US before the rest of the family to work and "set up" for their arrival. I would not be at all surprised if what happened was that Luigi naturalized before they came. He then, I think, put their names down on the form saying they were resident in Rochester already just so he wouldn't have to register them twice/so they'd have an easier time coming over.

I tried to attach the naturalization form, but it won't let me as a PDF, which is a bummer. Here is the exact text of the form:

The United States of America
Certificate of Naturalization
Petition Volume 104 Number 11096.

Description of holder. Age 43 years; height 5 feet 4 inches; color white; complexion medium; color of eyes brown; color of hair brown; visible distinguishing marks, scar on right side of face.
Name, age and place of residence of wife: ------ [note: nothing is filled in here, although she came over as well. Very odd.]
Names, ages, and places of residence of minor children: Giuseppe age nineteen years, Nina age sixteen years, Grazio age 14 years, residence, Rochester, NY, Monroe County, State of NY.
Signed Luigi Ruggeri.

Be it remembered that Luigi Ruggeri, then residing at number 106 Ontario Street, city of Rochester, state of New York, who previous to his naturalization was a subject of Italy, having applied to be admitted a citizen of the United States of America pursuant to law, and at a special term of the Supreme Court of New York, held at Rochester, on the 30th day of January in the year of our Lord 1923, the court having found that the petitioner had resided continuously within the United States for at least five years and in this state for at least one year immediately preceding the date of the filing of his petition, and that said petitioner intends to reside permanently in the United States, had in all respects complied with the law in relation, thereto, and that he was entitled to be so admitted, it was thereupon ordered by the said court that he be admitted as a citizen of the United States of America.

In testimony whereof the seal of said court is hereunto affixed on the 30th day of January in the year of our Lord 1923 and of our independence the 147th.

Signed James Hotchkiss, clerk of Supreme Court of Monroe County, NY

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 17 Aug 2010, 15:36

And wow - just looked at that record. How cool!!! How did you get that so fast??? Thanks a million... really interesting. I wonder when he naturalized then?

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby misbris » 17 Aug 2010, 15:40

Have you checked his ship's manifest to see if he travelled as an American citizen or as an alien?

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 17 Aug 2010, 15:41

No. How do I do that?

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby vj » 17 Aug 2010, 15:49

suanj wrote:It is very strange that Luigi naturalized and included the name of Grazio in naturalization( 1923); Grazio was not in USA until feb 1924, when he came with mother and sister, joining at Luigi in Rochester, NY;
Grazio was surely italian citizen at immigration time; for that he had the passport in 1924, otherwise he cannot go in foreign country.. the mother and Grazio as a well Annina sister never in USA before, so I cannot understand the Luigi naturalization...
the problem is in naturalization.. It was possible in a naturalization including also the people no immigrated and no residing in USA... I believe no possible.... you can insert here the Luigi naturalization?
suanj


misbris wrote:Have you checked his ship's manifest to see if he travelled as an American citizen or as an alien?


Feb 1924 manifest from Ellis Island
http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0014
page 2
http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0014

manifest special inquiry page, from ancestry. com
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/1132/17971015.jpg
---

guide to manifest markings
http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/manifests/

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 17 Aug 2010, 15:52

Says he's Italian, all right.

Huh. So where do I go from here?

Also, where can I get the certified form of both these documents (census and the ship form)?

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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby suanj » 17 Aug 2010, 16:21

the problem is that Luigi declared that the children residing in Rochester; instead they immigrated the year after.... It is strange that nobody checking the declaration of Luigi abt the children if resident really or not.... by ship's manifest you can understand that Grazio was italian citizen to 100% , but in Italy, also if he resulting naturalized in USA by father....
no naturalization markings on Grazio ship's manifest.. it is just a error abt the naturalization, that can be demonstrate by Grazio ship's manifest and 1930 census.... I believe that is matter for a lawyer...
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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby Michael31 » 20 Aug 2010, 04:41


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Re: A very odd jure sanguinis case. Help!

Postby mervirgo » 23 Aug 2010, 12:47

Hi all,
Just wanted to keep you updated on a new and interesting development!

I finally received a file from USCIS (request submitted back in May). I had requested documents regarding Luigi (my ggf) and also Grazio (my gf).

In response, they sent me documents on Luigi's naturalization; documents on Grazio's brother, Giuseppe's, application FOR DERIVATIVE NATURALIZATION; and no documents at all regarding Grazio. It's unclear if documents on Grazio are not in this file because they were not found, or because they will be sent in a separate file. (Of course, I have emailed them multiple times asking this, with absolutely no response). It has been a month and I still have received no further files.

Obviously, two interesting things stick out about this. One, if there are no files found regarding Grazio, perhaps he never was naturalized himself? And two, the common belief seems to be that naturalization by derivation happened "automatically." But Giuseppe's application -- filed after he came to the US as a minor, like his brother Grazio -- for derivative citizenship seems to point to the opposite. Especially since the last file in the series shows that his case was turned down because he needed additional documentation, and there is no follow-up whatsoever in the file, hinting to me that perhaps he never followed through -- and never WAS made a citizen.

Thoughts?
Mandy


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