Is junior illegal?

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oilman19
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Is junior illegal?

Postby oilman19 » 09 Jun 2010, 19:00

I have been led to believe from postings on this forum that it was illegal to name your son after yourself. I've seen it happen often here in the states with my Italian ancestors but not in Italy. I have attached a birth act (for reference purposes only) that seems to break the law or at least the tradition.
Did my distant ancestor break the law? Was there a penalty imposed for such an action? Does this mean that I am the descendant of a law breaker? Would this make Francesco Jr. an illegal son? Can anyone help me with this dilemma? :oops:

Jim

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Jun 2010, 19:23

Current Italian law enforces strict rules for the naming of children including not naming a child after either of his/her parents, no non-Italian alphabet characters, no non-letter characters, etc. I will find the law and post it here just as soon as possible.

My recollection is that the law is relatively recent. Prior to its implementation, tradition was probably the rule.
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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby oilman19 » 09 Jun 2010, 19:30

Carmine, somehow I knew you would not let me down. So, does this mean that having the record in my possession will not bring the polizia to my door? They will not resurrect my ancestor for contrition acts? :wink:
I had actually thought that the law was old and that tradition was the rule today. I'm glad I asked.
Thank you for setting me straight.

Jim
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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Jun 2010, 19:46

Ha! Check this out: What to name a child? In Italy, a court can decide

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL1845 ... dChannel=0
Carmine

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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby oilman19 » 09 Jun 2010, 20:00

I have seen and heard some ridiculous names here in the states that make the parents come across as loons and the child has to live with it for life. On the other hand, the Italian court sounds overly restrictive as far as naming is concerned.
One would think that some good common sense would play a role in naming your baby, anyways. That is an interesting article.

Jim
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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Jun 2010, 20:33

Full text of relevant Italian law: http://www.nomix.it/decreto-legge-396-2000.php

Google translation of same: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... 1&ie=utf-8



Summary of law regarding naming of children: http://www.nomix.it/articolo_leggi_10.php

Google translation of same: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... 1&ie=utf-8
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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby Squigy » 10 Jun 2010, 00:51

These laws seem a bit controlling. Why should the government be allowed to tell you what to name your child?

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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 10 Jun 2010, 02:22

Squigy wrote:These laws seem a bit controlling. Why should the government be allowed to tell you what to name your child?


My first thought is that Italy is trying hard to hold on to its heritage in any way possible, and forcing the naming of children with traditional Italian nomi is a part of that goal.

But, a few Google searches shows that Italy is far from the only country taking this tack:

New Zealand: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7522952.stm

France: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 167868.ece

Sweeden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law_in_Sweden

just to name a few.
Carmine

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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby Squigy » 10 Jun 2010, 03:25

johnnyonthespot wrote:
Squigy wrote:These laws seem a bit controlling. Why should the government be allowed to tell you what to name your child?


My first thought is that Italy is trying hard to hold on to its heritage in any way possible, and forcing the naming of children with traditional Italian nomi is a part of that goal.

But, a few Google searches shows that Italy is far from the only country taking this tack:

New Zealand: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7522952.stm

France: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 167868.ece

Sweeden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law_in_Sweden

just to name a few.


I understand that, but I don't think you can force tradition down the throats of citizens.

I think it should be seen as child abuse to name a child something profain, but Friday/Venerdì?

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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby pink67 » 10 Jun 2010, 07:30

About the "unsual" first names don't forget also our "religious impositions"...

http://www.paginecattoliche.it/modules. ... le&sid=978

I genitori, i padrini e il parroco abbiano cura che non venga imposto ai battezzandi un nome estraneo al senso cristiano (c. 855), e che sia un nome di cui, quanti sono battezzati alla nascita, abbiano poi ad essere soddisfatti.


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ITA0276/__P2S.HTM

Can. 855 - I genitori, i padrini e il parroco abbiano cura che non venga imposto un nome estraneo al senso cristiano.


Today is a little bit different but in the past it could happen that a priest didn't want to "impose" a name different form a Saint's name...

Laura

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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 10 Jun 2010, 12:15

Just to muddy the waters a bit regarding the business of "Junior" -

I am a Jr, being the only one of my parent's seven children (all boys!) to get a traditional Italian name. The story I was told is that the doctor and nurses all told my mother, "Surely this one will be a girl!" (I am the fourth/middle child) and thus my mother had already chosen a girl's name. When I was born male, they had to think quickly and I ended up with my father's name, Carmine.

So, anyway, having had my jure sanguinis citizenship application approved nearly two years ago (wow! it's been that long?), I have yet to see anything formal from my ancestral comune. However, my Italian passport shows my Nome/Given Name as "CARMINE" and my Cognome/Surname as "xxxxxxxx JR"
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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby oilman19 » 10 Jun 2010, 12:28

Since you were born in U.S., the Italian rules wouldn't apply, would they? You can't change history to satisfy a citizenship request. No "in country" rules were broken. I think you are pretty safe from the name Polizia. :)

Jim

p.s. I am curious, however, how did the document at the beginning of this thread ever make it through. It sounds like there was scrutiny.
I did consider the fact that someone may have written the wrong given name for the father. I haven't any documents to prove or disprove my theory. :?
Jim

Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.

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Re: Is junior illegal?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 10 Jun 2010, 13:02

I agree, however I have seen an occasional thread on other boards wherein a consulate gave an applicant a hard time over suffixes like Jr, II, III, and so on.
Carmine

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