Options when records only say "Italy"

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Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby hopemax » 20 Jul 2010, 19:58

I am trying to research my great-great grandparents.

I have: Death certificates for my great-great grandparents, some census Records, great-grandmother's birth certificate & marriage certificate and Great-great Grandmother's immigration record. On all of them the place of birth for my great-grandparents is listed as only "Italy." I have one last hope, that there will be a more specific location on the records of my great-grandma's older sister or brother who were also born in Italy (my great-grandma was born in NYC), but if their records come back with just "Italy." What are my options to try and find them on the other side?

I know they left from Naples, but that doesn't seem to be much help.

What I have

Giuseppe (Joseph) Carbone
born: 12 Aug 1959
location: unknown, Italy
mother: Maria Avino
father: Louis Carbone
died: 4 Nov 1935
location: Brooklyn
immigrated: unknown, but suspected 15 Apr 1893. Death certificate confirms, he came to America before wife and children.

Brigida (Bridget) Annunziata
born: Oct 1963 (no date)
location: unknown, Italy
mother: Irena Liberta
father: Giuseppe Annunziata
died: 22 Feb 1935
location: Brooklyn
immigrated: 22 Oct 1896, Naples

married: approx 1884, unknown location in Italy.

Children:
A. Maria (Mary) b. ~1887,
Luigi (Louis) b. ~1890,
Irena (Irene), b. ~1897
Carmela (my ancestor) b. 15 Nov 1899

Thank you for any assistance.

Hope
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby jamiecapaldi » 20 Jul 2010, 20:17

Whats the chances Giuseppe came over with a member of family.
I found a Francisco Carbone married to a Angela Maria Avino?
NAMES: Capaldi-Tedesco-Tamilio-Minchella-Verrecchia-Tomasso-Franchitto-Innelli-Arpino-Caringi-Colacicco-Macari-Pinchera-Salera-D'Orazio-Ambrosino-Di Mambro-Sigliocolo-Masello
PLACES: Cassino- UK, USA, Ireland, Canada & Australia
http://www.cassino-families.co.uk
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby johnnyonthespot » 20 Jul 2010, 20:22

Your best hope is that Giuseppe or one/more of the children naturalized in the US; the documents would almost certainly list their place of birth.

Have you researched this angle at all?
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby johnnyonthespot » 20 Jul 2010, 20:24

Another possibility: Social Security applications for the children. Giuseppe and Brigida died too early but the children would most likely have had social security cards. Their applications should list their place of birth.

See http://genealogy.about.com/od/online_re ... equest.htm
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby fishacura » 20 Jul 2010, 20:29

I'm not sure what you have for who (it was tough to follow) but from what I gather, you're looking for birthplace for grandparents right (not great grandparents)? If they died in this country...which it looks like they did...do you pull death certs? The death certs I have for my great grandparents (NJ and PA) have their home towns in Italy listed because the relative who filled them out happened to put more than a country. Did you try that one yet?
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby hopemax » 20 Jul 2010, 20:45

I have not researched the other children, but now that is my next strategy.

Speaking of which, I know Louis was associated with the mob, and was incarcerated for a period of time. But other than assuming it was a New York prison, I don't know dates. Is there a way to obtain prison records, and would it have his birthplace?
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby hopemax » 20 Jul 2010, 21:00

jamiecapaldi wrote:Whats the chances Giuseppe came over with a member of family.
I found a Francisco Carbone married to a Angela Maria Avino?


The immigration record that I suspect is his (appropriate age, in between the births of children born in Italy/US) was a ship that seemed to be carrying male peasants between the ages of 20-40, so I am not sure he traveled with any family.

But it might be possible that additional family came over prior or after he did.

What type of record is the one you found?
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby misbris » 20 Jul 2010, 21:11

The best place to find birthplace is on a manifest, but early manifests sometimes have little or no info as you have found out. Both names are very common throughout Italy. (No help)

However, Brigida's mother's last name Liberta is very, very rare. Acording to these sites, exists only in one place.

Liberta Cantalupo nel Sannio, province of Isernia , Molise.

http://www.gens.labo.net/en/cognomi/genera.html

http://italia.indettaglio.it/eng/cognomi/cognomi.html

However, if her name is Liberti, that name is all over the map aslo.
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby johnnyonthespot » 20 Jul 2010, 21:12

I would concentrate on the following, all of which should specify place of birth with reasonable accuracy:

a) Naturalization documents for any of the individuals, including Italy-born children who may have naturalized as adults in their own right

b) Social security applications for the children

c) Passport applications, especially for the children

d) Marriage certificates for the Italy-born children


Could this be Luigi?

LUIGI CARBONE DOB 01 Feb 1889 DEATH Jan 1977 87 APPLICATION FILED Jersey City, Hudson, NJ SS#158-01-9452
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby hopemax » 20 Jul 2010, 21:25

misbris wrote:The best place to find birthplace is on a manifest, but early manifests sometimes have little or no info as you have found out. Both names are very common throughout Italy. (No help)

However, Brigida's mother's last name Liberta is very, very rare. Acording to these sites, exists only in one place.

Liberta Cantalupo nel Sannio, province of Isernia , Molise.

http://www.gens.labo.net/en/cognomi/genera.html

http://italia.indettaglio.it/eng/cognomi/cognomi.html

However, if her name is Liberti, that name is all over the map aslo.


Yes, I did mistype it above, it is Liberti.

And yes the info missing on the manifests is very frustrating. My grandma's father died when she was 6 years old, and she knew very little about his family because they did not "approve" of her mother and thus had no contact. But he immigrated later, so I was able to find his birthplace and his mother's birthplace. It's a bit strange to be facing an easier road finding people she knew nothing about, than the people she did!
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby maestra36 » 20 Jul 2010, 23:21

A few comments-
1. naturalization records do not always give a town of birth. I have seen ones from the Westchester County Archives in NY which only say Italy. I have also seen ones from Brooklyn NY which only say Italy, whereas ones I have from Manhattan specifically give a town of birth, but these were from the 1930s. Recently someone showed me an early naturalization record from Manhattan for 1895 and it only says Italy.
2. passenger lists-sometimes the last residence is given and not the place of birth. Last residence is not necessarily the town of birth but it can be a starting point in your search, if you have nothing else.
3. U.S. death records-I have many NYC death records which only give Italy as the place of birth. It really depends on when and where the death took place.
4. marriage records for children born in Italy but married in the U.S. may have a town name. Some municipal marriage records give specific towns of birth in Italy, whereas others I have seen only say Italy. The thing you need to be careful about concerning this is that sometimes what appears to be a city in Italy is actually a province which has the same name. It looks like a city on the record because it is followed by a comma and then the word Italy.
5. if a U.S. municipal marriage record for one of the children born in Italy does not have the town of birth, check to see if that individual also had a church marriage. Even if a U.S. church document does not have a town of birth in Italy listed on it, that does not mean that that information is not recorded in the church's registers. So after getting the church record, you may have to phone the church, or send a follow up letter, asking for the parish to check their registers to see if they have recorded the Italian birth town of that individual.
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby hopemax » 19 Aug 2010, 17:06

I thought I would do a little update, because I now know where this family came from.

I called my Grandma to get more information about her aunt Maria and uncle Louis. She called a few of her older relatives and found out about a cousin, who is Maria's grandson. He has been researching the genealogy of the family too. Maria's marriage documents did reveal the town to be:

Poggiomarino!

He has been to Italy, and has obtained a few records from the church. But said the municipal records from the time we need, were destroyed in the war. I don't know how much additional information we will be able to obtain, but I really wanted to know the city, so I am satisfied. My husband and I plan to travel to Italy and other parts of Europe eventually, and I think it will give the trips greater meaning, if we visit the locales where our families were originally from.
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Re: Options when records only say "Italy"

Postby oilman19 » 19 Aug 2010, 20:14

Hi Hope,

Congratulations! :)

A little perseverance paid off. You have had a good month. I am happy for you. Most walls come down eventually. The genealogists on this site, more often than not, make it happen. They are wonderful.

Just a side note. When I started my research, I did not know the correct surname to look for. When I finally figured it out, with a lot of effort, I was able to make great strides.
You are on your way.
Jim

Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
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