Help finding info about Louis Romano and Marietta Crisenza.

[jpetrelli]

Very interesting material on the Crisenzas. Before today, I did not know anything more than my GGM's name, so there is much to gather and digest regarding this family line. Seeing a family pattern/tradition of carrying forward both surnames would explain Salvatore's name.

Regarding the 1910 "Andrew A Crisenza" Census listing... now that I have processed your observation, I think a family story provides a plausible explanation. As I have been told, Louis (Luigi) traveled to the US with his family, but did not stay. He returned to Italy. Its also been shared that while they don't know why he returned, it was mentioned that it might have been because of a marriage breakup. That would explain why Marietta re-adopted her Crisenza. Its easy to believe a Census worker would have automatically recorded the head of household's surname for the son.

You have helped me uncover so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.


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If I can impose, I am curious your thoughts on another message I posted about my family search. Can you help me translate and interpret the Birth Records I accessed?

http://italiangenealogy.tardio.com/Foru ... 18570.html

[pink67]

You're very welcome JPetrelli, there is a great team on this Forum

Regarding your previous topic:
http://italiangenealogy.tardio.com/Foru ... 18570.html

I agree with all was written by Tessa78 and Livio, if I may add something the midwife (Maria Agnese) that helped Giuseppina's mother in the birth asked to keep the baby and the Official gave her the permission.
Last name given is Aramini...

Regarding the 1910 "Andrew A Crisenza" Census listing... now that I have processed your observation, I think a family story provides a plausible explanation. As I have been told, Louis (Luigi) traveled to the US with his family, but did not stay. He returned to Italy. Its also been shared that while they don't know why he returned, it was mentioned that it might have been because of a marriage breakup. That would explain why Marietta re-adopted her Crisenza. Its easy to believe a Census worker would have automatically recorded the head of household's surname for the son.

All this seems to explain why Maria/Marietta kept her maiden name but I believe that she wasn't married at the time of the births of Salvatore and Andrea...
Salvatore DOB 1/6/1879
Andrew DOB 2/14/1890

Marriage between Maria Crisenza and Louis Romano 9/7/1895

from: http://www.italiangen.org/vitalreclist.stm

Crisenza Maria Sep 7 1895 Manhattan Certificate number: 13788
groom:
Romano Luigi Sep 7 1895 Manhattan Certificate number: 13788

If you're familiar with the Mormon's Family History Centers you can see the marriage certificate renting this microfilm:

Title Manhattan marriage records, 1866-1937 ; index to all boroughs, 1866-1937
Authors New York. Department of Health. Division of Vital Statistics (Main Author)

Certificates no. 13501-14500 1895
FHL US/CAN Film 1493447

Maybe the document can spread some lights...

Laura

[pink67]

This is a possible 1891 arrival manifest for Maria travelling with her son Salvatore, lastname is mispelled

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about Marie Ciemanger
Name: Marie Ciemanger
Arrival Date: 25 May 1891
Birth Year: abt 1863
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: Italian
Place of Origin: Italy
Port of Departure: Marseilles, France and Naples, Italy
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York
Port Arrival State: New York
Port Arrival Country: United States
Ship Name: Massilia
Search Ship Database: Search the Massilia in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

http://postimage.org/image/2rijlfxic/

Laura

[pink67]

From the site:
http://www.italiangen.org/Default.htm

NYC Death Index:

Crisenza Antonina 73 y Feb 8 1914 Certificate Number: 4512 County: Manhattan

I can confirm this date too
Someone created a memorial on the site findagrave:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... 211&df=all&

Antonina Napoli Crisenza
Anno 837 (birth year 1837)
Morta 1914 (death year 1914)

Carmela Napoli (can't understand the dates, however she must have been Marietta's aunt on the 1900 census)

and

Salvatore Crisenza
Anno 1906
Morto 1919

from Italgen.org;
Crisenza Salvatore M 11 y Aug 31 1919 Certificate number: 6442 Bronx

Possible this baby was Luke's son:

1910 United States Federal Census
about Luza Crisenza
Name: Luza Crisenza
[Luca Crisenza]
Age in 1910: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Head
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Spouse's name: Rosa Crisenza
Home in 1910: Manhattan Ward 12, New York, New York
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Male
Year of Immigration: 1890
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Luza Crisenza 34
Rosa Crisenza 38
Mina Crisenza 3
Salvator W Crisenza 2
Maria Crisenza 4/12
Agostin De Rosa 19
Domenic De Rosa 18
Joseph De Rosa 15
Rosina Cangemi 53
Rose Cangemi 20

Laura

[pink67]

There is a tree on Ancestry.com about Luca Crisenza (son of Antoninna Napoli):
Maybe you can contact the owner and share the stories....

Laura

[jpetrelli]

Laura,

I went to the local LDS Family History Center and ordered three microfilms.
1. Luigi Romano and Maria Crisenza's Marriage Certificate.
2. Salvatore Romano and T. Cappellini's Marriage Certificate.
3. Maria Crisenza's Birth Record.

I have already ordered the microfilm containing Giuseppina Aramini and Vincenzo Bruno's Italian marriage records. So, I should have new information to explore within a couple of weeks.


[hr]
I continue to process the information you helped uncover. I have a couple of questions to learn more from how you research...
a. Where did you find the extracts of Wedding Record information? I've gained access to material like that, but not easily.
Ex.

New York Marriages, 1686-1980

Groom's Name Luigi Romano
Groom's Birth Date
Groom's Birthplace
Groom's Age
Bride's Name Maria Crisenza
Bride's Birth Date
Bride's Birthplace
Bride's Age
Marriage Date 07 Sep 1895 Question
Marriage Place Manhattan, New York, New York
Groom's Father's Name Vincenzo
Groom's Mother's Name Vincenza
Bride's Father's Name Salvatore
Bride's Mother's Name Antonnina Napoli
Groom's Race
Groom's Marital Status
Groom's Previous Wife's Name
Bride's Race
Bride's Marital Status
Bride's Previous Husband's Name
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M00136-7
System Origin New_York-ODM
Source Film Number 1493447
Reference Number

b. What leads you to believe Luigi Romano and Maria Crisenza were not married before the 1895 document, even though they had two sons prior to 1895 in Italy? I recognize that happens and is possible, I was just curious if there was more contributing to your thought besides the later Manhattan Marriage Record and Census information you found.

By the way, without bringing up that alternative, my grandmother mentioned that possibility when I discussed what we had found. She's not one to casually suggest something like that, so I'm leaning towards believing your interpretation.

c. How/where did you access the baptism records where you found the images you shared with me? Was it http://www.italiangen.org/Default.htm?

Thank you again for all of your assistance. I would love to reciprocate if I can do any research for you that is easier to be done in the US.

Joe

[pink67]

You're very welcome Joe, and I'm really happy to have the chance to help you... your family's history is very interesting and "intriguing"

a. Where did you find the extracts of Wedding Record information? I've gained access to material like that, but not easily.

I used this site:
http://beta.familysearch.org/

digit "Crisenza" in "last name" and you'll came up with several records, the 9th record is the marriage record for Maria Crisenza with Louis Romano...

b. What leads you to believe Luigi Romano and Maria Crisenza were not married before the 1895 document, even though they had two sons prior to 1895 in Italy? I recognize that happens and is possible, I was just curious if there was more contributing to your thought besides the later Manhattan Marriage Record and Census information you found.

Several clues brought me to this idea:
- Baptism record with no annotation for marriages
- I think not possible a second marriage license in NYC with the same person
- Son Salvatore who listed him on the WW1 Draft Registration card with his mother's lastname (and used all his life the "C" after Salvatore, sure for Crisenza).
- 1900 census for Maria Crisenza.... have you noticed that in the same house were living two "boarders"?:

1900 United States Federal Census
about Mary Crisenie
Name: Mary Crisenie
[Mary Criscuci]
Home in 1900: Manhattan, New York, New York
Age: 33
Birth Date: Jul 1866
Birthplace: Italy
Race: White
Gender: Female
Immigration Year: 1892
Relationship to Head of House: Niece
Father's Birthplace: Italy
Mother's Birthplace: Italy
Mother: number of living children: 0
Mother: How many children: 1
Marriage Year: 1894
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 6
Occupation: View on Image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Millie Naple 50 (Carmela Napoli on the 1910 census, Marietta's aunt), widow, born in Italy, mother of 4 children among whom only 1 living,
Loera Naple 21 daughter, single, immigr. year 1894
Antone Crisenie 63 , female (Antonia Napoli, Marietta's mother) widow, immigr. year 1894, mother of 5 children among whom only 2 living, immigr. year 1891
Mary Crisenie 33 , niece, born in Italy, married since 6 years, one children dead, ommigr. year 1892
Luke Crisenie25 nephew (Marietta's brother), born in Italy, immigr. year 1892
Salvator Lurardo 19 boarder, single, born in IT on October 1880, immigr. year 1892, at school
Alfred Lurardo 10 boarder, single, born in IT on December 1889, immigr. year 1892, at school

I know that their birth dates are wrong (Salvatore born on Janury 1879 and Andrew Alfred on February 1890) but their first name are interesting.... Salvatore was Maria's first son and Andrew Alfred the second, I believe this could be more than a simple coincidence... them both were at school... especially Salvatore who was 19 years old it makes me think that he was studying at the College or University and we know that he was a phisician...

Maria's declarations on the census manifest.... Married since 6 years (more or less correct, her marriage in NYC was on 1895... only one son but no living, sure it was Louis's child born between september 1895 and the census date (June 15, 1900) and died in the same period...
but why she lay about the two other sons? possible because they were not Louis' sons?...
I checked this free site:
http://www.italiangen.org/NYCDEATH.STM
trying to find the dead child but it's almost impossible to establish with sureness which was because there are many little children who died between 1895 and 1900 carrying the lastname Romano in Manhattan...

Presuming the two living sons were born in Italy (Bisacquino)... I checked the baptism acts for them too and found nothing ... I searched also using their mother's maiden name.... nothing... maybe they were born in another town or maybe they had another lastname...
However I want to check again the italian latin databases to search better for them..

c. How/where did you access the baptism records where you found the images you shared with me?
Was it www.italiangen.org/Default.htm?

No, it was the site I pointed you before:
http://beta.familysearch.org/

click on "All collections"

then click on "Europe"

and then click on "Italy"

the database I used is: "Italy Catholic Church Records"
"Nome della Provincia : Palermo"
and then "Bisacquino"
"Parish San Giovanni Battista"

Unfortunately the records are not indexed so you have to search "manually"

I want to tell you another thing.... Looks like Crisenza is very rare lastname:

http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

So, why don't try to contact the italian people with this rare surname? I'm pretty sure they are related to you...
Only three persons in Italy listed on the whitepages:

http://www.paginebianche.it/execute.cgi ... isenza&dv=

and just a few on Facebook...

I'm going on with the Crisenzas researching

Laura

[jpetrelli]

Laura,

Presuming the two living sons were born in Italy (Bisacquino)... I checked the baptism acts for them too and found nothing ... I searched also using their mother's maiden name.... nothing... maybe they were born in another town or maybe they had another lastname...

My research shows that Andrew Alfred and Salvatore were both born in Palermo, Palermo, Italy.

Andrew Alfred - WWI Registration
Salvatore - Passenger List (Second page of Passenger List)
[hr]

More as I continue reviewing your information.

[pink67]

Hi Joe,

I noticed the fact they stated they were born in Palermo.... But it was pretty common for people born in the area of the main town of the province to state the main town as place of birth.
Just for example, many people coming from the area where I live stated Genoa as place of birth instead of the many towns of the province of Genoa - Liguria region....

These are two great sites for births and marriages in Palermo but the years are off for yours ancestors:

http://sites.google.com/site/palermobirths/

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... index8.htm

in the marriage database there are several Crisenza but no Maria...

and Antonia Napoli (Marietta's mother) 1892 arrival:

September 8, 1892

Antonia Napoli, age 56, from Bisaquino to NYC:

www.ellisisland.org/EI...;line=0030

Laura

I considered also that Marietta's mother 1892 arrival from Bisacquino to NYC....

The distance between Bisacquino and Palermo is more or less 50 miles....

Laura