Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

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SaraG
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Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby SaraG » 30 Nov 2010, 00:41

So I have an ancestry.com membership but it is of no help because I cannot find any Italian records. I know my Great great grandfather was Antonio Tortorella and he was born about 1868. No one knows the name of his wife, my great grandfathers mom. She died in an earthquake in Messina between 1900 and 1904 and that is all that anyone knows. She is not even listed as the mother on my great grandfathers death certificate, it only list his father. My Great grandfather was Paolo or Paul Tortorella. Can anyone help me? pretty please~!~!

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Biff83
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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby Biff83 » 30 Nov 2010, 01:27

Hello SaraG and welcome!

Is this the ship manifest for your GGF Antonio with his son Paulo and daughter Concetta headed back to Brooklyn NY?

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0009

Biff
"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free, silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands"

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JoeVenezia
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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby JoeVenezia » 30 Nov 2010, 03:27

Hello,

That could be them but it says they are going to visit his wife/their mother Maria Patalina/Fatalina in Brooklyn...does that make sense?

One thing I did find is a marriage for Paolo Tortorella in July of 1925 to Carmela Maratano...are those your Great Grandparents? If so, the certificate number is in the attached link....through the NYC Vital Records you can order a copy of the marriage certificate....should show parent's names, birth location, etc:

http://www.italiangen.org/NYCmarriagere ... &B1=Submit

The following could be your GGF's death but the birth year is slightly off from 1868:

Tortorella Antonio 58 y Mar 30 1930 Certificate # 603 Richmond T636

You can also order that death certificate through NYC Vital Records page....if that is him it will show his parents.

Hope this helps.

Ciao,
Joe
Surnames: Venezia (Atripalda), Ciotti (Roccagorga), Di Giacomo (Polla), Tassi (Ceccano)

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SaraG
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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby SaraG » 30 Nov 2010, 22:19

I'm not sure if that is my family in that ship document or not. I think maybe not because my grandmother told me he had 2 sisters. Thank you Joe, I cannot read that writing but if it said they were visiting family that would have to be wrong because they were the first to immigrate from my family. But yes Paolo and Carmella are my great grand parents. I added their marriage date and still no more information has come up. Thank you for the help. If you find anything else let me know. :D

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby JoeVenezia » 01 Dec 2010, 00:21

Hi Sara,

Here is the link to the NYC Vital Records online order form....I think it will cost between $15 and $20 to get your great grandparents marriage certificate:

http://www.nyc.gov/dorforms/marriagecert.jsp

Tortorella Paolo Jul 8 1925 Manhattan Certificate # 22453
Maratano Carmela Jul 8 1925 Manhattan Certificate # 22453

Will let you know if I find anything else. Good Luck!

Joe V.
Surnames: Venezia (Atripalda), Ciotti (Roccagorga), Di Giacomo (Polla), Tassi (Ceccano)

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby JoeVenezia » 01 Dec 2010, 00:27

You may already have this, but here is their 1930 Census Record:

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=Vi ... d=42047459

Ciao,
Joe
Surnames: Venezia (Atripalda), Ciotti (Roccagorga), Di Giacomo (Polla), Tassi (Ceccano)

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby JoeVenezia » 01 Dec 2010, 00:32

...and your great grandmother Carmela's 1920 NYC Census Record:

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... en&indiv=1
Surnames: Venezia (Atripalda), Ciotti (Roccagorga), Di Giacomo (Polla), Tassi (Ceccano)

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby JoeVenezia » 01 Dec 2010, 00:39

OK...and one more....guessing this is your Great Grandfather Paul's death record/certificate (Vermont?).....born June 29, 1900 in Messina, Sicily....father was Anthony Tortorella but mother is unlisted:

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=Vi ... pid=147557

If he is definitely from Messina, you should be able to access the civil records through the LDS/Mormon Family History Centers and get his birth registry:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library ... eno=624174

It looks like they are available for 1910....hope this helps.

Ciao,
Joe
Surnames: Venezia (Atripalda), Ciotti (Roccagorga), Di Giacomo (Polla), Tassi (Ceccano)

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby JoeVenezia » 01 Dec 2010, 00:41

OK...and one more....guessing this is your Great Grandfather Paul's death record/certificate (Vermont?).....born June 29, 1900 in Messina, Sicily....father was Anthony Tortorella but mother is unlisted:

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=Vi ... pid=147557

If he is definitely from Messina, you should be able to access the civil records through the LDS/Mormon Family History Centers and get his birth registry:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library ... eno=624174

It looks like they are available for 1910....hope this helps.

Ciao,
Joe
Surnames: Venezia (Atripalda), Ciotti (Roccagorga), Di Giacomo (Polla), Tassi (Ceccano)

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SaraG
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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby SaraG » 08 Dec 2010, 02:05

Ok crazy thing, I found my great grandfather's naturalization papers and he did arrive on the Nord America on November 21, 1904. So I am guessing that claim on the passenger list about visiting family was a lie to just get into the country. So that IS him but I still have not found anything about his mother.

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby Eleven » 08 Dec 2010, 03:58

Sara, I doubt that it was a lie.

I believe when people came to this country, they needed a person to go to. They didnt want people here, that had no job or noplace to live. Someone had to be responsible for them. I also believe, the person had to take them off the ship..so lying wasnt an option.

While those people may not have been family, they could have been friends. Townspeople that came here first.

My grandfather was the first to come to this country in our famly..however, he went to friends (men who were already here). Many times, the man came first. He would go to other men who were already here. Usually, those men provided him with a bed and helped him find work. When he saved enough, he sent for his family.

I am guessing, if you continue with your genealogy, you might find out who those people were.

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby oilman19 » 08 Dec 2010, 09:16

Hi Eleven,

I can confirm that scenario for you.

When my grandfather immigrated thru Ellis Island, he was going to a person he called his brother in law (in impossible connection). I later was able to find out who the person was and there was a relationship to his wife but definitely not her brother.
Jim

Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.

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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby suanj » 08 Dec 2010, 10:49

the big earthquake in Messina was in 1908... and because
in the ship's manifest found from Biff,

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0009

Paolo Tortorella's, mother maiden name was Maria Salatina(in Messina exist: Saladino and Salatino, so maybe Maria maiden name was Salatino), and because Antonio Tortorella declared that from 1902 to 1904 ( sept) he was already in USA, it is possible that Antonio came back in Italy in 1904 and again in USA with Concetta and Paolo children...

In 1910 a probable brother of Antonio Tortorella, Fortunato Tortorella with wife Grazia, and children:
Paolo, Placido, Concetta, Benedetta and Caterina,
and niece Giuseppa Tortorella,
pag 1 http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0007
pag 2 http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0007

well, Fortunato joining at brother Antonino Tortorella, same address of ship's manifest of Nov 21, 1904, so Antonio/Antonino had a brother Fortunato, and Antonio /Antonino( married at Maria Salatino), sure had this children: Concetta b. abt 1897, Paolo b. 1900, and Giuseppa b. abt 1903....
so in 1910 the other daughter, Giuseppa, joined at father...
by first names of children, we can understand that Antonio and Fortunato, parent's first nameswas very probably Paolo and Concetta, because both the brothers names the first son and the first daughter: Paolo and Concetta...
Fortunato Tortorella becoming Fred Tortorella in USA:

1920 United States Federal Census
about Fred Tortorella Name: Fred Tortorella
[Fred Sortorella]
Home in 1920: Brooklyn Assembly District 16, Kings, New York
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
[Head]
Spouse's name: Grace Tortorella
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Male
Home owned: Rent
Year of immigration: 1909
Able to read: No
Able to Write: No
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Fred Tortorella 50
Grace Tortorella 49
Paul Tortorella 23
Gertrude Tortorella 20
Placido Tortorella 16
Bessie Tortorella 13
Catherine Tortorella 10
Joseph Tortorella 5


I believe that for to solve the mystery of Antonio Tortorella wife, a good step is to find the family in 1905 New York State Census (Brooklyn) as a well the 1910 census...
regards,
suanj
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Eleven
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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby Eleven » 08 Dec 2010, 16:19

Oilman, My great grandfather was going to his sister. It shows a Santa..and his surname (obviously he used her maiden name). I was never able to find a ship passenger entry for her. Of course, its almost impossible for me to find her in this country, since she would be using her married surname.

I have never gotten the records to prove this sister existed, altho her first name seems to show a lot in that town and it is also the first name of his wife.

Now, I dont think he lied. Someone had to be there for him when he got off the ship..lol..I am just not sure it was his sister..lol

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SaraG
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Re: Looking for my Great Great Grandmother

Postby SaraG » 08 Dec 2010, 23:39

[quote="suanj"]the big earthquake in Messina was in 1908... and because
in the ship's manifest found from Joe,

http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0009

Paolo Tortorella's, mother maiden name was Maria Salatina(in Messina exist: Saladino and Salatino, so maybe Maria maiden name was Salatino), and because Antonio Tortorella declared that from 1902 to 1904 ( sept) he was already in USA, it is possible that Antonio came back in Italy in 1904 and again in USA with Concetta and Paolo children...

In 1910 a probable brother of Antonio Tortorella, Fortunato Tortorella with wife Grazia, and children:
Paolo, Placido, Concetta, Benedetta and Caterina,
and niece Giuseppa Tortorella,
pag 1 http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0007
pag 2 http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0007

well, Fortunato joining at brother Antonino Tortorella, same address of ship's manifest of Nov 21, 1904, so Antonio/Antonino had a brother Fortunato, and Antonio /Antonino( married at Maria Salatino), sure had this children: Concetta b. abt 1897, Paolo b. 1900, and Giuseppa b. abt 1903....
so in 1910 the other daughter, Giuseppa, joined at father...
by first names of children, we can understand that Antonio and Fortunato, parent's first nameswas very probably Paolo and Concetta, because both the brothers names the first son and the first daughter: Paolo and Concetta...
Fortunato Tortorella becoming Fred Tortorella in USA:

1920 United States Federal Census
about Fred Tortorella Name: Fred Tortorella
[Fred Sortorella]
Home in 1920: Brooklyn Assembly District 16, Kings, New York
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Self (Head)
[Head]
Spouse's name: Grace Tortorella
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Male
Home owned: Rent
Year of immigration: 1909
Able to read: No
Able to Write: No
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Fred Tortorella 50
Grace Tortorella 49
Paul Tortorella 23
Gertrude Tortorella 20
Placido Tortorella 16
Bessie Tortorella 13
Catherine Tortorella 10
Joseph Tortorella 5


I believe that for to solve the mystery of Antonio Tortorella wife, a good step is to find the family in 1905 New York State Census (Brooklyn) as a well the 1910 census...
regards,
suanj[/quote


How did you find this Maria Salatino and that she was their mother? I visited your website, I guess you have better resources than we do here in America. I do know that my Great grandfather did have a step mother at some point but i have never found any marriage records. But if his mother was Maria and all we know is that she died in an earthquake how would that be possible if she was living in America. I wish I could somehow get a hold of my great grandfather's birth record then I would really know but i cant find any church records for Messina.


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