Death Certificate Discrepancies (pretty unique problem)

Are you looking for an Italian surname? Do you need more information about your family heritage?
This is the right place to start your genealogy search.
User avatar
TheInvisibleFisherman
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 19 Jul 2008, 05:01

Death Certificate Discrepancies (pretty unique problem)

Postby TheInvisibleFisherman » 20 Sep 2011, 04:05

Good evening everyone!

I am trying to apply for italian citizeship via jure sanguinis.

Today I have received a letter from Forino (AV), Italy, informing me that they have the birth certificate for the ancestor that I was looking for.

------

According to the Stato Civile di Forino, this is the data on the birth document:

Name: Michele Zirolli
Date of Birth: 15 February 1852 (yes 1852, not a typo ... Im going four generations back!)
Place of Birth: Forino, Avellino
Father of the newborn: Salvatore Zirolli
Mother of the newborn: Teresa Vivenzio

The death certificate which I have in my possession, details the following information however:

Name: Michele Zirolli
Date of Death: 1897 (the day and the month are actually written as well but I do not remember them right now)
Date of Birth: not noted (there's actually not even a line or box in the death certificate to fill out this data; however there is a certain part where it says he was 37 years old when he passed, and if we do the math.... 1897 - 45 = 1861, which is NOT the year of birth on the birth certificate.
Place of Birth: Naples (does not detail whether it is the City or Province)
Father of the Deceased: Andres Zirolli
Mother of the Deceased: Teresa Vivenzio

ADDITIONALLY; at the bottom of the death certificate there is a side note saying that this information was presented and filled out by two "simples conocidos" (which would translate to "two individuals with whom he was only familiar with")

ADDITIONALLY; at the bottom of the death certificate there is another side note saying he was survived by his wife Teresa Grieco (another Teresa) and his son Angel; information which is completely true and accurate.
--------------

If we compare both documents we see three discrepancies:

1. Place of birth: Avellino vs Napoli; however I think a reasonable explanation is that since the two emmigration ports at that time were Genoa and Napoli, perhaps he told some people that he was from a well-known large city with an important port (Napoli) rather than say he was from Forino (which is rather insignificant population-wise). Plus they are only 60 kilometers apart. It is important to note that he immigrated to Uruguay and died there as well.

2. Name of the father: Salvatore vs. Andres.
However on the Michele's marriage certificate (1882) it says that his mother (Teresa Vivenzio) was already
widowed at the time. So it seems that two "familiar folks" at his workplace or wherever he knew them from 16 years later,
had little reason to know about his father's name.

3. Date of birth: 1852 vs 1861. But the birth certificate of the next ancestor in line (Angel), matches virtually all the details found on the birth certificate of his father (Michele) from Italy and is also in accord with the 1852 birth year of his father, Michele Zirolli.

So I want of you guys what you think I should do or attempt to do with this. Since this death certificate is in fact a document in the "direct line", I've decided to post it on this forum.

I want to thank you guys tremendously in advance for your time and effort. Perhaps this is one of the more complicated discrepancy issues that anyone seeking citizenship has had in a long time.

Chris.

User avatar
RussoTiesi
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 40
Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 03:03

Re: Death Certificate Discrepancies (pretty unique problem)

Postby RussoTiesi » 21 Sep 2011, 18:42

A few quick questions and comments (with the caveat that I'm just beginning my research and in no way consider my answers authoritative--but hopefully helpful in some way):

1) Could you explain how you calculated the year of his birth, based on the death certificate? (Your equation says 1897-45=1861; I assume you meant to write "1897-37", but that would still yield a birth year of 1860, unless the exact month and day would lead to 1861.)

2) Do you have a date for his immigration to Uruguay? If he was born in 1852 and emigrated before March 17, 1861 (Italian Unification Day) he would never have been an Italian citizen. (Would I be correct in guessing he didn't leave Italy until after 1861?)

3) Have you attempted to located a baptismal record that would corroborate one of the dates? The diocese of Avellino is under the archdiocese of Benevento:

Official Web Site: http://www.webdiocesi.chiesacattolica.i ... Diocesi=30
Mailing Address: Palazzo Arcivescovile, Piazza Orsini 27, 82100 Benevento, Italia
Telephone: 0824.32.33.24
Fax: 0824.32.33.78

I looked at the FamilySearch.org website but couldn't find any church records for that area. However, they do have microfilms of the civil records you are researching:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/cat ... m%2F409713

Perhaps you might want to look at them just to make sure that the information you received from Italy was transcribed correctly.

2) Assuming you can pin down a date of birth, have you considered having the Uruguayan death certificate amended to reflect the correct information? (As someone who had an Italian ancestor in South America, I'd understand why this might not be an attractive option.)

Best wishes,

Jim
Researching following surnames: Russo Tiesi, Terranella, Randazzo, Pancamo; and the following towns: Chiusa Sclafani and Campofelice di Fitalia

User avatar
TheInvisibleFisherman
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: 19 Jul 2008, 05:01

Re: Death Certificate Discrepancies (pretty unique problem)

Postby TheInvisibleFisherman » 22 Sep 2011, 08:06

1. Sorry I made a mistake. It was supposed to be 1898 - 37 = 1861. I dont know what i was thinking at the time that I typed this. My apologies.

2. I do not have a date for his immigration to Uruguay but I thought the rule was that if he was only alive March 17, 1861 in Italy or abroad he could still pass citizenship. In other words, I don't him leaving Italy before 1861 would've disqualified him from citizenship.

3. Thank you very much for the information. I will look at this resource very closely to see if I can corroborate some dates.

Im currently talking to my relatives in South America to see if I can get the death certificate amended. I highly doubt this is possible however.

On a side note, do you know how many years in discrepancy the Italian Consulate would be willing to accept from documents this old?

User avatar
RussoTiesi
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 40
Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 03:03

Re: Death Certificate Discrepancies (pretty unique problem)

Postby RussoTiesi » 23 Sep 2011, 00:24

If you post which consulate you are applying at, I bet someone on the board can give you some insight on the question of date discrepancies.

My remark about needing to be in Italy after unification to be considered an Italian citizen was informed by a discussion I read on another board. You'll probably want confirmation that this is indeed the case.

If your ancestor went to Uruguay via Buenos Aires, there's a chance he can be found in the immigration records at http://www.cemla.com/busqueda.php (although I'm not sure their records cover the date ranges you are considering).

Good luck!
Researching following surnames: Russo Tiesi, Terranella, Randazzo, Pancamo; and the following towns: Chiusa Sclafani and Campofelice di Fitalia


Return to “Italian Genealogy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests