Pavia records on Ancestry.com

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Assuntax3
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Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 14 Feb 2012, 14:43

Hello and happy Valentines Day!

Does anyone have experience with the Pavia, Lombardy, Italy, Civil Registration Records, 1866-1937 record set on ancestry.com?

According to the catalog description, the database contains
"...marriages, marriage banns, deaths, allegati (enclosures or supplemental records), and citizenship records for comuni (towns) in the northern Italian region of Lombardia from 1866-1937. Birth records (Atti di Nascita) are not included, only indexes and birth allegati."

I have family who were born in Pavia, were married, and died in Pavia. In some cases I know the town, in others, I don't. There are a million records in this database.

The database description also says
There are hand-written annual and decennial indexes for many of the records. These indexes have not been transcribed and so are only searchable by image. They are organized according to record type and year. Generally these indexes will list the name of the primary person and their record number.
That seems like a good place to start, but if I don't know the town, it will take a long time to go through them all.

I need help figuring out how to narrow it down so I can find the records I am looking for! Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Assunta

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adelfio
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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby adelfio » 14 Feb 2012, 15:45

Assunta there are indices (indexs for nascite (birth) matrimonio (marriage) and morte (death) Use the index by name they are usually alphabetical and find the record number like so. Like the name in the index Abbiati Marie Luigi 1873 record # 33 > Pavia > Indice Annuale Nascite >


Image

I dont know why they dont have the most of the atti di nascita (birth records ) but they do have alot of indexes that you can search. I would search them by year and get the record number of the name you find and order the micro film from Family HIstory Library Pavia (Pavia),1866-1929
click on prompt for films
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library ... avia+%28++
At least you have a index to search for birth records. Also by using the
indice decennale nascite you have a multi year search of birth index
On the other hand for marriage records you have plently of indexes and marriage records for alot of years
click for index keep clicking to enlarge Pavia > Pavia > Indice Decennale Matrimoni > 1866-1875 gives the year (anno) and record number under (unica)

Image

So if you want to look up the first name Abelli/1869/37 go to atti di matrimonio for 1869 and find record number 37 by going through the pages for that year they are in numerical order.
Heres some help for you reading and translating records
https://www.familysearch.org/learningce ... 22Italy%22
I dont know why they just did the birth indexes without many birth records I guess because Family History Library already had them filmed for those years
Leave some names your searching for and abt years and I will give a quick look
Researching Trabia, Palermo surnames Adelfio, Bondi, Butera, Scardino,Rinella, Scardamaglia

Marty

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 14 Feb 2012, 23:02

Thank you Marty, that is helpful. I have looked through a few of the index pages for one town I have the name of (San Genesio ed Uniti) - for example I tried looking at the Indicia Annuale Nascita for the birth year of one relative I think was born there, and I also tried the Indicia Annuale Matrimonia for the year I think he was married there, but didn't find him. For most of the family I only know that they were born in Pavia but I don't know the town. The family names are:

Toscani (Pietro, Joseph, Carmelina, Maria Gina, and Adele/Adelina)
Ferrari (Maria Felicini)
Rancatti or Rancati (Luigi, Emilio)
Papavero (Rena/Irene, not sure what her Italian name was)


I will try the Indicia Decennale as well, I wasn't sure what that one was for.

Do the main Pavia indices cover all of Pavia?

According to the ancestry wiki on Pavia they are not done indexing these documents. I think that means they are planning to provide a searchable index of names ... I hope so!

Thanks,

Assunta

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby adelfio » 15 Feb 2012, 15:03

Assunta sometimes on ancestry.com the birth indexes are kinda of screwed up you might have to do a little looking around the index for the name your looking for,like your Toscani surname. The letter T in the index ended so I went back to the beginning of the index and there it was Toscani.
Pavia > Pavia > Indice Decennale Nascite > 1886-1895 Image: 6 of 175
click for index 1886-1895 click to enlarge

Image
Another thing is there are sometimes two parts to Italian birth records Parte I and Parte II they are usually marked on the index. Parte I is the regular index the city official made then if something happen like a late entry for any unknown reason they would put it Parte II so always check that. If you look at Italian birth records there are usually 2 dates one at the top for the recorded day and another in the middle for the birth day. (Those Italians HUH!!!)
Heres some help for you translating birth records click to enlarge
https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki ... Record.jpg

Did any of your relatives get married in Pavia?

Whats the name for San Genesio ed Uniti your looking for?


Marty
Researching Trabia, Palermo surnames Adelfio, Bondi, Butera, Scardino,Rinella, Scardamaglia

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 16 Feb 2012, 23:43

Marty, thanks for explaining the Parte 1 and 2, that was really confusing me.

The families I am looking for are FERRARI, PAPAVERO, RANCATI, and TOSCANI.


I am descended from the Toscanis and Ferraris, but they seemed to be very close to the Papavero and Rancati families, there were a lot of marriages between them!

My Toscani ancestors are Pietro Joseph (Giuseppe?) Toscani and Maria Felicini Ferrari (I am not 100% sure about these names, for example it could be Pietro Toscani, or Giuseppe Toscani, or even Maria Felicini.

They had 4 children:
Carmelina, b. 1887 in Pavia
Adele, b. 1890 in Milano
Maria Gina, b. 1897 in Milano
There was one boy but all I know about him is that he was alive in 1970. I don't even know his name.

All three sisters immigrated to the US between 1907-1914, with the brother staying in Italy.

In 1911, when Maria Gina immigrated, her last residence was in Verrua Po (in Pavia) and in 1914, when Adele immigrated, her last residence was in Siccomaria (in Pavia), so it seems the family returned to Pavia some time after 1897. Maybe the parents stayed in Siccomaria...

Carmelina married a man who I think is from San Genesio named Emilio Rancati around 1907-8, but I don't know if they married in Italy or in the USA. So there may be a marriage record for them.

Adele married her husband in the USA, and Maria Gina probably married her husband there too (he is not from Pavia so they probably met in the USA).

So ... I am looking for birth and marriage records for Carmelina, but what I really want is birth/marriage/death records for the parents, who probably married in Pavia around 1886. I am also trying to find the brother, but given the large gap in age between Carmelina and Adele, I suspect he was born in Milan between 1892-1896.

I am also looking for the family of Emilio Rancati - his brother was born in San Genesio so he probably was too, in 1883. I would love to find his parents names. However I think I have enough work to do looking for the Toscanis and Ferraris!

Thanks again,

Assunta

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby adelfio » 17 Feb 2012, 15:59

If your sure she was born in Pavia what I would do since the birth records are at Family History Library I would get the film for Carmelina Toscani , b. 1887 in Pavia and check the info on there(parents names ages and misc info)
FHL Film Pavia (Pavia), 1866-1929
Nati(births) sett. 1884-nov. 1889
FHL INTL Film# 2163699
You have to remember Italian marriages take place 95% of the time in the brides home town which was Milano if the other kids were born there if your info is right.
Where did the Toscani's settle in the states

Marty
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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby adelfio » 18 Feb 2012, 01:53

Do you have any of the ship manifest of the Toscani family?
Can you post them on here?
Marty
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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby suanj » 18 Feb 2012, 18:36

Hi I believe that this is Emilio Rancati arrival ( full name: RANCATI Celso Emilio, single, last residence Verrua, joining at Luigi brother in North Adams, Mass) line 12:

First Name: Celso Emilio
Last Name: Rancali (Rancati)
Ethnicity: Italy, Italian
Last Place of Residence: Verrna
Date of Arrival: Jan 19, 1907
Age at Arrival: ... Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Prinzess Irene
Port of Departure: Genova
Manifest Line Number: 0012




http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0012

hoping helpful,
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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby adelfio » 18 Feb 2012, 19:15

Looks like San Genesio as the birth place on the manifest
Index for Pavia > San Genesio ed Uniti > Indice Decennale Nascite 1876-1885 THere are two Rancati's might fit them LUIGI AND EMILIO in the index (looks like no birth records again just birth indexes.
click for index click to enlarge

Image

Marty
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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 18 Feb 2012, 22:47

adelfio wrote:If your sure she was born in Pavia what I would do since the birth records are at Family History Library I would get the film for Carmelina Toscani , b. 1887 in Pavia and check the info on there(parents names ages and misc info)
FHL Film Pavia (Pavia), 1866-1929
Nati(births) sett. 1884-nov. 1889
FHL INTL Film# 2163699
You have to remember Italian marriages take place 95% of the time in the brides home town which was Milano if the other kids were born there if your info is right.
Where did the Toscani's settle in the states

Marty


Marty,

I'm so glad you are asking me these questions, because it is causing me to go back and check my sources for information which I gathered a long time ago, when I was just starting to do geneaology research. In fact I made several mistakes!

I know from Carmelina's obituary that she was born in Pavia, that is the only proof I have.

Her sister Maria Gina was NOT born in Milano, her husband was. That was a mistake which I made on ancestry.com when I attached her husband's WW II Draft card to her record as proof of residence in 1942 - I forgot to uncheck "place of birth" and Milano was automatically entered over her previous place of birth. In fact her passenger manifest lists "Verrua P" or "Verrua S" as place of birth.

I was also wrong about Adele, she was born in Verona according to her naturalization document. I do wonder if there is a mistake there, though, because Verona sounds a little like Verrua, and the ship she immigrated on was the Verona, and her English was not very good. Adele's passenger manifest shows her last place of residence as what looks like "Verua Sicom" and her closest relative is her father in "Verrua Siccomario"

I don't think there is a town called Verrua Siccomario - in the area of Pavia there is S. Martino Siccomario, and there is Verrua Po.

All 3 Toscani sisters immigrated to North Adams, MA - first Carmelina who seems to have followed her husband, then Maria Gina, then Adele. Although Maria Gina and Adele later moved to New York, Carmelina stayed in Massachusetts most of her life. After being widowed twice she moved to NY to be close to her sisters but returned to North Adams to be buried with her first husband Emilio Rancati and his family.

I will post all the images and if we can't figure it out I will order the films.

Thanks so much for your interest and help. What a great and generous group of people you are!

Assunta

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 18 Feb 2012, 22:51

suanj wrote:Hi I believe that this is Emilio Rancati arrival ( full name: RANCATI Celso Emilio, single, last residence Verrua, joining at Luigi brother in North Adams, Mass) line 12:


hoping helpful,
suanj


Suanj,

You are a genius! That must be Emilio Rancati's immigration (his brother Luigi did live at that address in North Adams, MA). I did not know his first name was Celso, as it does not appear in any other sources I have found. I do check ellisisland.org as ancestry.com does not always have all records (they do not have this one, for example) but in this case, I guess I did not.

Mille grazie for finding this!

Assunta

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 18 Feb 2012, 22:55

adelfio wrote:Looks like San Genesio as the birth place on the manifest
Index for Pavia > San Genesio ed Uniti > Indice Decennale Nascite 1876-1885 THere are two Rancati's might fit them LUIGI AND EMILIO in the index (looks like no birth records again just birth indexes.

Marty


Marty, I found those too but at the time I was not sure because I didn't know Emilio's first name was Celso (thank you again Suanj!), and the second name is listed as Enrico instead of Emilio. Also the birth year for Luigi was 1 yr off from what I expected. However given that I now know about Celso, it seems that these are indeed the two brothers. I wish they had the actual birth records. So frustrating!

Thanks,

Assunta

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 18 Feb 2012, 23:40

Links to:

1) Maria Gina's passenger manifest - she is on line 19
Page 1:
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... st1911.jpg
Page 2:
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 911_p2.jpg

2) Adele's passenger manifest - she is on line 13
Page 1:
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... st1914.jpg
Page 2:
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... 914_p2.jpg

3) Adele Toscani Ippoliti Naturalization - Note how they have typed over her place of birth. It looks like perhaps it said Verrua and they changed it to Verona.

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee4 ... rd1933.jpg

Note I have never been able to find Carmelina's passenger manifest. I have looked on ancestry.com, ellisisland.org, and familysearch.org using various keywords and combinations, trying Toscani and Rancati as her last name. Never found it.

Her obituary says she immigrated in 1910 and the 1930 census says she immigrated in 1907. As we just learned thanks to Suanj, her husband was single when he immigrated in Jan 1907. I know she arrived before Oct 1911 because her sister Maria Gina listed her as her destination when she immigrated in Oct 1911. I could not find a record of marriage in North Adams (their records are fairly thorough) so it's possible they married in late 1906 and she immigrated some time in 1907, after her husband got settled...?

Any ideas on finding her immigration would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Assunta

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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby adelfio » 18 Feb 2012, 23:57

I have to show you something I found by accident
Registri dello stato civile di Verrua Pò (Pavia), 1866-1929
Civil registration of births, marriage publications, marriages, and deaths for Verrua Pò, Pavia, Italy. Includes annual indexes. Verrua Pò was formerly named Verrua Siccomario
Films from FHL
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/librar ... Verrua+P++
Marty
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Re: Pavia records on Ancestry.com

Postby Assuntax3 » 19 Feb 2012, 03:19

adelfio wrote:Verrua Pò was formerly named Verrua Siccomario
Marty


Oh wow! That explains a lot. I guess I need to order the films...

Assunta


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