Italian Translation Help

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Italian Translation Help

Postby rp76226 » 23 Jun 2012, 21:05

I partially translated the birth record of Vincenza Loforti born July 8, 1870. I think I got her parents, grandfathers, but not grandmothers which makes me think I made a mistake. The birth was illegitimate (correct?). The father was Antonino Loforti, age 25, son of Raimondo Loforti, tailor (borgese, but what's the word before borgese?). The mother was Giuseppa Luisi, daughter of Santo Luisi. The record was on two different pages. Here are the links:
http://postimage.org/image/w8eoqdo55/
http://postimage.org/image/da1utjmmz/
In addition to the names of the grandmothers, how would you interpret the word between Vincenza and Loforti in the margin section next to the text? Are there any other family members mentioned in these birth documents?
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Re: Italian Translation Help

Postby Italysearcher » 24 Jun 2012, 00:38

What happened here was two unmarried people declared the birth of their 'natural' child and chose to recognise the child. As a result she was given the father's surname and both parents were named. I suspect they were married shortly after, maybe the date was even set and this action would save the clerk the trouble of amending the birth record later after the marriage. They may even have been married in the church already.
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Re: Italian Translation Help

Postby liviomoreno » 24 Jun 2012, 07:31

rp76226 wrote:I partially translated the birth record of Vincenza Loforti born July 8, 1870. I think I got her parents, grandfathers, but not grandmothers which makes me think I made a mistake. The birth was illegitimate (correct?Yes). The father was Antonino Loforti, age 25, son of Raimondo Loforti, tailor [where did you read it?] (borgese, but what's the word before borgese?"di condizione"). The mother was Giuseppa Luisi, daughter of Santo Luisi. The record was on two different pages. Here are the links:
http://postimage.org/image/w8eoqdo55/
http://postimage.org/image/da1utjmmz/
In addition to the names of the grandmothers, how would you interpret the word between Vincenza and Loforti in the margin section next to the text? I read it "intesa" and I believe that it is a weird way to say that the surname is Loforti Are there any other family members mentioned in these birth documents?No
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Re: Italian Translation Help

Postby rp76226 » 24 Jun 2012, 17:25

Antonino Loforti age 25 appears on the last line of the first page of the document. Son of Raimondo Loforti appears on the first line of the second page of the document. Borgese appears after di condizione and it translates to "plain clothes" which I take to mean "tailor" since I've seen that word elsewhere for people I know were tailors. What is tantalizing for me is the possibility that Antonino Loforti may be the brother of a family memeber Marco Loforti because Marco and his wife have the same two fathers' names as Antonino and his wife. Antonino's mother's name would confirm it. Also interesting is they both named daughters Vincenza plus their wives have the same last names and might be sisters. I will look for other Antonino Loforti records to see if I can find his mother's name.
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Re: Italian Translation Help

Postby liviomoreno » 24 Jun 2012, 17:46

To my knowledge, "di condizione borgese" (or borghese) means "middle-class". I could not find anywhere (but I might be wrong) the translation "plain clothes"
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Re: Italian Translation Help

Postby rp76226 » 24 Jun 2012, 18:00

That's what the Google Translator gave for borgese. When you use borghese, it gives multiple definitions including yours and mine. Usually the word borgese is placed in the field for 'profession'. Middle class is not really a profession. Not sure what's right anymore.
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Re: Italian Translation Help

Postby liviomoreno » 24 Jun 2012, 18:14

The whole sentence "di condizione borgese" means "middle class" a class between the nobles and the peasants. Usually a middle class man had enough money on his own and did not need to work for a living and in any case he would have an intellectual job...
I'm surprise about the Google translation, I checked several on line dictionaries and and also an old Italian dictionary and I could not find that translation or meaning...
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