Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

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Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby nrafanello » 28 Jan 2014, 20:49

Hello,

We have all of our paperwork ready to go, which includes the revisions made based on feedback from an initial meeting with the Italian Consulate in Newark, NJ. The only remaining item is a the certificato di cittadinanza for our Grandfather (born 1893). Following a request, the Commune di Baucina wrote us back stating they have no record of this certificate in their archives. It is surprising that a birth certificate can be provided, but not confirmation of citizenship however I guess the right of citizenship does not come with being born in Italy.

We have asked the Commune for potential citizenship information for our Grandfather's parents however the Commune has gone silent with us after stating there was no record of our Grandfather. We have tried many times to call the offices, but can't seem to get a live person to pick up the phone.

Might anyone have suggestions on what to do next? Should we hire someone to chase the document? Or perhaps there is a national register of citizens that could fulfill this requirement?

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts / advice... Nick
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 28 Jan 2014, 21:14

I live in Italy and I don't know any Italian citizen (my relatives included) that has a Certificate di Cittadinanza. Italians in Italy are Italian citizens because their parents were Italian citizens. Being born on Italian soil does not make you an Italian citizen. To proceed further, you are going to have to prove that your grand-father's father was an Italian citizen. If the commune has no record of your grand-father's father, you will have to do some research to learn more about your great-grandfather.
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby nrafanello » 28 Jan 2014, 22:27

Many thanks for the response. I'm a bit perplexed at this moment because reading the message boards it seems that most Italian consulates require proof of Italian citizenship in the form of a Certificate di Cittadinanza before they are willing to process a request for dual citizenship.

However if they are very rarely issued (as in your case none of your family members have one), then how do dual citizenship candidates satisfactorily meet this requirement?

My ancestors are clearly of Italian descent as stated on the ship manifests for aliens traveling to America... but since I don't have his original passport I can't prove it. Perhaps I should attempt to obtain a copy of his passport?

- Nick
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby jennabet » 29 Jan 2014, 01:52

My grand-father, whom I obtained Italian citizenship through, was also born in Italy in 1893. He came to America in 1910 and he never had a passport. Neither did any of the Italian immigrants that came to the US at that time. My grand-father was confirmed to be an Italian citizen by his commune which also has the birth and marriage records of his parents. His parents' information was on his birth certificate and that's all my consulate needed. Personally, I don't think providing a certificate of citizenship is a common request by the consulates because in most cases it just isn't necessary. Your consulate is asking for one because your grand-father really can't prove he's Italian if the commune doesn't know who his parents are.
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby adelfio » 29 Jan 2014, 03:46

What is your grandfathers name ? There are records of Baucina,Palermo online perhaps you can the find the parents marriage act. I would fine the record myself then send it with your request for the marriage extract in international form for Italian citizenship to the Comune di Baucina

Here is the 1893 Baucina birth index PG LINK

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... :470095041

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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby nrafanello » 29 Jan 2014, 04:11

Many thanks to all and for the advice... Initially the Commune di Baucina quickly provided us our grand-father's birth certificate. Included on the birth certificate was:

Luogo di nascita - Baucina (PA)
Data di nascita - 16.02.1893
Baby's name: Antonino Fiumefreddo
Father's name: Filippo Fiumefreddo
Mother's name: Rosaria Lo Cascio

However at the Consulate, the rep looked at this Italian birth certificate and then asked for proof of Antonino's Italian Citizenship. This request was not one that I was prepared for, but after re-reading the consulate forms, it states the following must be provided *in addition* to the Italian birth certificate:
2) YOUR PATERNAL GRANDFATHER’S CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP issued by the Comune where your grandfather was born and resided up to the year he emigrated abroad or his old Italian passport.

This is where our train fell off the tracks and we have been stuck here since October. Written responses from Baucina stated this document doesn't exist and so our path forward is unclear...

As per jennabet's advice, I'll begin obtaining information on Antonino's parents... however it still strikes me as odd that someone could be born in a small town in Baucina around 1893 and not be considered an Italian citizen.

Perhaps Marty's advice to pursue the birth index may provide birth detail on his parents and continue the hunt.

Many thanks again for continued thoughts / advice on how to complete this final step (hopefully) in the journey...
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby adelfio » 29 Jan 2014, 05:34

INDEX#18
1887 Oct 9th in the town of Baucina appeared Filippo Fiumefreddo age 25 shepherd born in Baucina son of deceased Pietro Fiumefreddo and deceased Mattia Tantillo married Rosaria Cascio age 29 born in Baucina daughter of Santo Cascio and Isidora Cannizzaro

PG LINK TO RECORD
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... :470095041

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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby nrafanello » 29 Jan 2014, 05:55

This is incredible! Thank you so very much Marty. Based on the information you uncovered, what do you think the best next steps would be to receive confirmation of Antonino's Italian citizenship?
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby adelfio » 29 Jan 2014, 07:19

OGGETTO: richiesta copia integrale l’estratto dell’atto di matrimonio, in formato internazionale di: Filippo Fiumefreddo e Rosaria Cascio di ottenere la cittadinanza italiana

Gentilissima Signora, Gentile Signore,
Il mio nome e YOUR NAME. Sono un cittadino americano discendente da Italiani e sto cercando di ottenere anche la cittadinanza italiana.
La ringrazio anticipatamente di voler comunicare i costi di spese di riproduzione e postali per atti di matrimoni di queste persone:
Nome e cognome del marito: Filippo Fiumefreddo di Pietro Fiumefreddo e Mattia Tantillo
Nome e cognome della moglie:Rosaria Cascio di Santo Cascio e Isidora Cannizzaro
Luogo di matrimonio:Baucina
Data di matrimonio: 09 oct 1887 (Numero d'ordine#18)
Se non avete i registri corrispondenti, potete fornire l’indirizzo dell’archivio dove in cui i registri possano essere trovati?
Nell'attesa della sua risposta le invio cordiali saluti.

YOUR NAME ADDRESS EMAIL

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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby suanj » 29 Jan 2014, 11:25

I know that the "Certificato di Cittadinanza storica" issued by a italian commune, it is a certificate where the clerk stating that no resulting -on the Commune's citizenship registry- that the italian ancestor renounced to italian citizenship in front to italian governamental authority...
pratically:
when a italian ancestor became US citizen he renounced to italian citizenship, but in USA...

if he made same thing in the italian birth commune or in the Italian Consulate in foreign country, this his declaration it is wrote in the Registro di Cittadinanza( citizenship registry) in the italian Commune of birth...

so the "Certificato di Cittadinanza storica" it is a certificate where the clerk declaring that in the Commune citizenship's registry no resulting that the person renounced to italian citizenship in front to the italian authority.... so if the italian ancestor never renounced in Italy to italian citizenship, he remained italian citizen in Italy.. in USA he became US citizen, but in Italy that no resulting...
It is a simply declaration made by Commune clerk...
regards,
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby nrafanello » 29 Jan 2014, 19:44

Fantastic, thanks all for the assistance. Will write back once I have an update.
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby nrafanello » 23 Jun 2014, 05:21

Just wanted to update all of you... we returned to the consulate and met with another person who did not request this information and approved our citizenship! Just a few weeks back we received confirmation that we are now able to request our passports. Sincerest thanks to all of you who so quickly jumped into assist us.
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby suanj » 23 Jun 2014, 06:17

Congratulations :D !
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Re: Options to establish an ancestor is an Italian Citizen

Postby carubia » 23 Jun 2014, 08:13

It's very rare for a consulate to ask for an Italian certificate of citizenship. Miami used to, and I think some Canadian consulates as well, but I haven't heard that they're doing that anymore, and I certainly never heard of Newark or NY asking for it. I wonder if there was something unusual about your case that would've made them request this, such as your ancestor's name did not sound Italian or he was born outside Italy.

BTW, wasn't the Newark consulate closed? When was your most recent appointment? Or was it at NY instead?
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