(Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Are you looking for an Italian surname? Do you need more information about your family heritage?
This is the right place to start your genealogy search.
nome utente
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 19 May 2014, 21:30
Location: New York

(Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby nome utente » 20 May 2014, 05:49

Hi everyone, looking for a little help here regarding an ancestor of mine who has significantly different dates of immigration to the US in different documents.

1910 census: says he immigrated in 1895
http://interactive.ancestry.com/7884/44 ... turnRecord

1927 petition for naturalization: says he immigrated in 1895
http://interactive.ancestry.com/1554/32 ... turnRecord

1930 census: says he immigrated in 1880
http://interactive.ancestry.com/6224/46 ... turnRecord

So...do I ignore that 1880 and just assume 1895 is correct? I just found it odd that there'd be such a large difference. I understand dates were often fluid in the old days. Like his year of birth: he was listed as 40 in the 1910 census (birth year ~1870), but gave the exact date of June 2 1868 as his birth date in 1927. That's so close I assume it's negligible. Likewise with his name: Tony in 1910, Antonio everywhere else. But 1880 and 1895? That puzzled me.

If anyone can help me shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it. In fact, any documents you can find regarding Antonio Papa would be much appreciated. I've found very few: the two federal censuses above and his naturalization petition are about it. If the latter is to be trusted, he is from Avellino--whether that's the comune or provincia of Avellino, I'm not sure. Born June 2, 1868. Married to Rose (a.k.a. Rosa, I believe). Someone else on ancestry.com--a distant relative--seems to have determined he was from Senerchia, though I'd like to find a way to be more certain on that.

Thanks in advance!

User avatar
Paolo47
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 214
Joined: 27 Nov 2005, 00:00
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby Paolo47 » 21 May 2014, 12:52

Hello and welcome :D
Antonio Papa birth act. Father Rosario and Mother, Maria Gaetana Berardinelli. If this is your Antonio, he was born in Senerchia.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,348678501
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,348678501

About his immigration, I would guess the Naturalization Petition would be the record to use as your source.

Paul
Researching Ruggiero, Caputo, Viola, Priore and many more at Our Family Genealogy.

User avatar
Paolo47
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 214
Joined: 27 Nov 2005, 00:00
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby Paolo47 » 21 May 2014, 14:24

Hello again :D

The clues I got from the trees on Ancestry,,,
The birth act for Rose, Antonio's wife
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,246449701

Born, Feb, 1877 in Chiaromonte, Potenza, Father, Giuseppe, Mother, Angela Maria DeSanti.

Paul
Researching Ruggiero, Caputo, Viola, Priore and many more at Our Family Genealogy.

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 May 2014, 15:19

The 1910 census appears to me to say 1878, not 1895. Does anyone concur?

As to the Date of Arrival on naturalization petitions, this is always the date of last arrival into the US. It is quite possible that your ancestor arrived in the US 1878/1880, returned to Italy for some period of time (perhaps quite short) and made his final landing in the US in 1895.

For example, my paternal grandfather first came to the US in 1904 as a 17 year-old single man. He returned to Italy sometime prior to 1906, married my grandmother, and then returned to the US in 1910 (my grandmother followed some years later - it's a long story...).
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

nome utente
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 19 May 2014, 21:30
Location: New York

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby nome utente » 21 May 2014, 15:52

Thanks to both of you! I wrote out a long response to Paul, but I'm not sure it went through when I submited the post. Hmm...

Carmine: I see what you're saying, it definitely looks like it could be '78, or '95. I assumed it was the latter for two reasons. Firstly, because that's how ancestry.com interpreted it:
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... &ml_rpos=1

And secondly, because he put 1895 on his naturalization papers.

As far as coming to the US earlier: So if he came in '78, he would have been about 10 years old, meaning he'd be accompanied by a parent or some sort of relative (I hope!). His father joined him in NY after his wife died, and he lists his first entry into the US as 1908. Therefore, if he answered the census taker correctly, he couldn't have been the one who accompanied his son to America back in '78. As far as I know, Antonio's mother never left Italy. It's always possible an uncle or an aunt took him, though, I suppose.

Thanks for the help!

nome utente
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 19 May 2014, 21:30
Location: New York

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby nome utente » 21 May 2014, 15:53

Hey Paul--thanks for both the welcome and the help. Both are very much appreciated!

Apparently I needed to go to the next page of the naturalization form. There I can find Antonio's Oath of Allegiance and his certificate of naturalization number, stamped by Judge Moscowitz. He became a US citizen on June 9, 1927. I guess for whatever reason(s) he was fibbing to the census takers all those years earlier. He couldn't have possibly been a citizen of the US before 1927.

Thanks a lot for the other documents you found for me--what a great help! I've been looking for information regarding Antonio's and his wife's births, their parents' name, and the locations, so the information you've just given me is incredible.

So Antonio was born in Senerchia to Rosario Papa and Maria Gaetana Berardinelli. Rosa was born in Chiaromonte to Giuseppe and Angela Maria DeSanti.

I just have a couple of questions, if you don't mind. I'm not so good with reading 19th century Italian handwriting :D

Firstly, was her first name Rosalia? That's how it looks to me.

Secondly, was her surname Caprarulo? I found two entries in the marriage indexes for her and Antonio, about one month apart, but with her surname spelled differently in both. The first entry had her as Rosa Craparulo, the second as Rosa Caprarulo. I assumed the latter was correct, and if I'm reading the link you gave me properly, it looks like Caprarulo is indeed the right spelling.
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... s&h=606555
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... s&h=476378

Thirdly, are there any dates available? I know people weren't fastidious about birth dates back in those days, so the year is probably good enough, but I'm just curious :)

And lastly, I'd like to request both of their birth records from Italy. If I list Rosa's mother as DeSanti and it's actually De Santi, or DeSanti instead of DeSanto for her mother's maiden name...would that hold things up? I know sometime's bureaucracies can be incredibly anal about things like that.

Thanks again Paul, and anyone else who might be able to help!

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 May 2014, 17:48

OTOH, the 1915 New York State census has Antonio in the US for 20 years, so that reinforces the 1895 date.

Image

(click once to view; click again to zoom)

Also, the 1915 census seems to say that Antonio is already a US citizen - is that "Cit" or "Al" in the citizenship column? Compare to other entries on the same page...
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 May 2014, 18:12

1925 New York State census. Salvatore appears to be married at this point...

Image
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 May 2014, 18:18

Not sure how much of this stuff you already have...

Is this your Antonio and Rose?


New York City, Marriages, 1600s-1800s about Antonio Papa
Name: Antonio Papa
Spouse Name: Rose Fabrizio
Marriage Date: 1890
Marriage Place: Manhattan, New York, New York

Marriage ID: 63 0001079
Certificate Number: 6973
Other Comments: See Family History Library catalog for films 1543971-1562446 (Manhattan) and Film 1653852 (Brooklyn), for actual certificate.

Source: Marriage Registers, Extracts from Manhattan (1869-1880) and Brooklyn (1895-1897)
Publisher: Dept. of Health, Division of Vital Statistics, New York.
Publication Place: New York, NY
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

nome utente
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: 19 May 2014, 21:30
Location: New York

Re: (Significant) Discrepancy with immigration dates

Postby nome utente » 21 May 2014, 19:59

johnnyonthespot wrote:Not sure how much of this stuff you already have...

Is this your Antonio and Rose?


New York City, Marriages, 1600s-1800s about Antonio Papa
Name: Antonio Papa
Spouse Name: Rose Fabrizio
Marriage Date: 1890
Marriage Place: Manhattan, New York, New York

Marriage ID: 63 0001079
Certificate Number: 6973
Other Comments: See Family History Library catalog for films 1543971-1562446 (Manhattan) and Film 1653852 (Brooklyn), for actual certificate.

Source: Marriage Registers, Extracts from Manhattan (1869-1880) and Brooklyn (1895-1897)
Publisher: Dept. of Health, Division of Vital Statistics, New York.
Publication Place: New York, NY


Carmine, actually I don't think that is my Antonio and Rose. This is:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F6WR-XDR

I've come across that Antonio Papa and Rose Fabrizio. The dates are close, but the above link is almost certainly them, as the names of their parents and dates of birth look correct.

Thanks for looking around for me, though, I really appreciate it!


Return to “Italian Genealogy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], jennabet and 18 guests