civil records in gualtieri sicamino

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mezzogiorno62
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civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 17 Jun 2014, 21:23

regarding civil records in gualtieri sicamino messina.i've been researching records there for quite a while(both lds digitized starting in 1866 and the pre 1866 records at http://www.antenati website).for the records at lds after 1866,i find there are no indexes,which is problematic.the pre 1866 records at http://www.antenati are indexed for the most part.but there appear to be 2 sets of records-and both are not always available,which can be problematic.example:i wrote to the comune of gualtieri and recieved the birth act for maria bonarrigo(b.nov.1847)but could not find it at the http://www.antenati site(nati 1847),as i wanted to view what i thought was where i would find the original.not there.so i wrote back to gualtieri.they sent me the original birth act taken from the civil register,with the correct information.but again,its not found in the online records.my guess would be that the comune has access to records not available online-like a part 2 that wasn't made available when the records were originally digitized for online access.this is just 1 comune,which makes me wonder how many missing records aren't being made available at both the lds and http://www.antenati websites.this could apply to many other comuni

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby carubia » 18 Jun 2014, 02:41

The records are online are from the provincial archives, which contained copies of records held at the courthouse in Messina. They may differ from the actual records held at the comune.

For example, my GGF's birth cert from the Messina courthouse has the wrong name for his father, but the comune of Barcellona has the correct information in their records.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 18 Jun 2014, 02:55

i can see the records are different.like i mentioned,when i recieved the extract from the comune of gualtieri sicamino,i wanted to locate the original record.i went to the antenati website,then to the year 1847 for nati.thats where the record should have been found-or so i thought.it wasn't.so i wrote back to gualtieri as to how and where the original record source could be found.they never explained it-but sent me a photocopy of the original birth act.much better condition than the records found at the antenati site(from the state archives in messina,rather than the comune).it appears that the comune has records not found at the archival records office.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby PippoM » 18 Jun 2014, 08:34

Can you post the document you received from the comune?
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

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adelfio
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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby adelfio » 19 Jun 2014, 15:20

Heres the birth record and extract
CLICK ON IMAGES
gualtirei.jpg


mar1.jpg


mar2.jpg


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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby carubia » 19 Jun 2014, 17:49

I just a look at Antenati and I see what you mean. What I think happened is that the place where she was born was not part of Gualtieri Sicamino at that time and thus the records are listed under another comune. If you compare these birth acts with the acts they have for Gaultieri Sicamino for 1847 you can see that the official is different. (It's Paolo Cigola in the acts on Antenati. Here it looks like Francesco.) Moreover, the name of the comune on the act Marty posted does not look like Gaultieri, whereas one can clearly see Gaultieri on the acts from Antenati. It used to be that Gaultier and Sicamino were separate comuni, but the name on your acts doesn't look like Sicamino either. It is encouraging that Antenati has a separate set of records for Sicamino. However, I checked them and there were only 4 births for 1847, none of which were the record your looking for. Still, I suspect that the record is with the records for some other comune.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby carubia » 19 Jun 2014, 18:14

I found it. It's in Soccorso. look at a map of Gaultieri Sicamino - it's right next door. It's slide #14 in 1847 births.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jun 2014, 18:51

i just checked the http://www.antenati.san@beniculturali.it site.i found the birth act under soccorso.what i don't understand is how,when i originally wrote to gualtieri for this birth record,they knew where to find it.the extract i recieved was from gualtieri,not soccorso.it appears that soccorso,if a bit distinct from gualtieri,is a village or section adjacent,not a totally separate comune.this can get confusing.i've been trying to find the death records for the parents of maria bonarrigo-domenico and mattia puleio,which occurred after 1847,although not necessarily,in gualtieri.i checked gualtieri records for morte at the antenati website from 1848 through 1865,at which point lds films begin,starting in 1866.i'll double check soccorso deaths ca.1847-1865,then,if nothing is found,i'll go to the online lds digitized films to see if soccorso is also listed separate from gualtieri.i'll continue starting in 1866 and as far as the records continue.hopefully i might find something.but this can get confusing! domenico bonarrigo and mattia(rigulo)? married in santa lucia in 1845.then,later that year,their son francesco was born.i found that birth in gualtieri-not soccorso.at the time of this birth,mattia rigulo is mattia bonarrigo(using her husbands name).then,in 1847,at the birth of daughter maria,mattia is mattia puleio.3 different names for the same person.this may have been the result of her being born of unknown father and carmela rigulo(according to the 1845 marriage)and possibly finding out,by 1847,that her birth father was a puleio.who knows.nothing is ever easy or uncomplicated here.either ignoti genitori at every turn-or the subjects moving constantly from one comune to another.when i first started out doing this 15 years ago,the consensus was that italians rarely strayed from their comune of birth.generations could be found in the same place.not true,as years of research will bear out.it would be nice if it were true.but its not.domenico bonarrigo,according to the 1845 marriage(in santa lucia del mela),was from tresiloco-in calabria!mattia was born in san filippo del mela-son francesco was born in gualtieri,and daughter maria in soccorso.all over the map in 1 generation!note:i just went to the lds site.no separate listing for soccorso.just gualtieri.so all i can check out are the years 1847-1859 for soccorsco at the antenati site.its too bad lds didn't do it the same way.i've noticed,though,in research records in gualtieri,that soccorso often appears.as soccorso records,separate from gualtieri,only appear to go up to 1859,its possible the 2 places merged as one after that,at least in official records.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby carubia » 19 Jun 2014, 19:35

It is not currently a separate comune; that's why its records are held with Gaultieri Sicamino! If it were a separate comune you'd have to contact them directly. It the past it was separate, just as Gualtieri was a separate comune from Sicamino.

Also check Sicamino records, which are distinct from Gaultieri Sicamino records on Antenati.

They probably checked Gaultieri records and when they weren't there looked at Soccorso. Presumably they have all the records together in one place, even if not in the same books (assuming they're still using the old books and haven't digitalized them).

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jun 2014, 20:40

like tresiloco,a section of the comune di oppido mamertina,in reggio calabria,where domenico bonarrigo was born.the only way to access some of these records is to write to the comune itself,as the digitized records at lds aren't going to have them.even the state archives can be problematic.i would never have found the original record if the comune of gualtieri hadn't checked soccorso.whats odd is that the comune,when sending me the extract from the original birth record back in 2012,didn't note soccorso on the document.i could have gone right to soccorso 2 years ago and found the original.on paper the birth appears as just gualtieri sicamino.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby Tessa78 » 19 Jun 2014, 21:19

carubia wrote:I found it. It's in Soccorso. look at a map of Gaultieri Sicamino - it's right next door. It's slide #14 in 1847 births.


'Great find, carubia! :-)

T.

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jun 2014, 21:28

thanks.we did find it

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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby adelfio » 19 Jun 2014, 21:38

Great researching Carubia!!!
With Soccorso being a frazione of Gaultieri Sicamino the extract is technically right for the frazione records are kept a comune level They have multiple books for Gaultieri Sicamino


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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby adelfio » 19 Jun 2014, 21:42

Also I think the church she was baptized in was chiesa Arcipretura S. Nicola


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Re: civil records in gualtieri sicamino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jun 2014, 22:03

i checked the diocese of messina website marty.they have contact information for most,if not all,of the parishes in the province.even email addresses which i've contacted.nothing for the parish you mentioned.i even wrote to that parish(not sure i had an exact address,but as its a very small comune the postal code should have done it)but i never heard anything.as many of these comuni are so small-and often understaffed-they occasionally consolidate.parishes are closed.and regarding frazione.the father of maria bonarrigo,domenico,was,according to the 1845 marriage record,from tresiloco,part of oppido mamertina,in reggio calabria.so the birth record,which i'm waiting for,would be held in oppido mamertina,as tresiloco was a frazione.i see these discepancies in many of these records.


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