1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

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rp76226
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1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby rp76226 » 03 Oct 2014, 19:08

Please translate the key details of this 1717 church marriage record:

http://postimg.org/image/5d8h2yv51/

The photo comes out large so that you might have to scroll left to right and up and down to see it all.

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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby PippoM » 06 Oct 2014, 14:11

Hello! This is what I see:
marriage date: June 27th, 1717
Groom: Giovanni (? Joannes) di Puma Pagliarello, son of deceased Francesco and living Santa (?), from this town
Bride: Rosa lo Longo Fiaccastilla (?), daughter of deceased Giacomo and living Stefana, from this town.
Too many surnames!! :-)
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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby Marcello_DAleo » 06 Oct 2014, 23:18

Racalmuto, 27 Jun 1717
Marriage of Giovanni di Puma Pagliarello, son of the late Francesco and living Santa, from Racalmuto, with Rosa lo Longo Fiaccastilla, daughter of the late Giacomo and living Stefana, from Racalmuto.
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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby rp76226 » 07 Oct 2014, 03:26

What are the maiden names of the mothers of the bride and the groom?

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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby PippoM » 07 Oct 2014, 09:17

They don't seem to be mentioned...
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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby rp76226 » 10 Oct 2014, 18:19

Names are the only words that I can sometimes make out in these documents. It seems to me that Santa is followed by the name Puma Pagliarello which either is the same as her husband's and son's name or maybe includes her husband's name Puma, and Pagliarello is her maiden name. likewise, isn't Stefana's name followed by La Longo Fiaccavilla? I'm thinking that La Longo is a carryover of her husband's name, and Fiaccavilla is her maiden name.

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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby rp76226 » 28 Oct 2014, 04:14

The person in Italy who sent me this record translated the first name of the groom's mother as Giovanna, while the members here translated it as Santa plus gave me new info that she did not give me. She kind of responds when she wants to, which isn't often, so I'm not sure why she translated it as Giovanna. I am still grateful to her because she has found for me 5 generations of Puma through old church records before civil records were kept that I could not otherwise have found. Can anyone see anything that would have led to her thinking that Giovanna was the first name of the groom's mother?
Also, the member's here say that the maiden name of the groom's mother isn't there. Yet, it appear to me that Puma Pagliarello appears as a name for her (see the link in my first post). Do you think they were just giving the name of her husband which appears to be the same name? It does appear that the full name of the mother of the bride was given and it contained her husband's last name plus another last name which I believe is her true maiden name (Fiaccavilla).

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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby PippoM » 28 Oct 2014, 12:48

rp76226 wrote:Can anyone see anything that would have led to her thinking that Giovanna was the first name of the groom's mother?
The capital "S" in mother's name (the more I read it, the more it seems to be "Sancta") looks like the capital J (see "Joannem", name of groom)
Also, the member's here say that the maiden name of the groom's mother isn't there. Yet, it appear to me that Puma Pagliarello appears as a name for her (see the link in my first post). Do you think they were just giving the name of her husband which appears to be the same name?
Yes, I do
It does appear that the full name of the mother of the bride was given and it contained her husband's last name plus another last name which I believe is her true maiden name (Fiaccavilla).
I think it was a double surname, "Lo Longo Fiaccastilla", just like "di Puma Pagliarello"; it is repeated in spouses' names on the left, so those must be their full surnames, unless we imagine the priest used Spanish convention for surnames; but in that case, that would be valid for Puma Pagliarello, too
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Re: 1717 Chruch Marriage Record translation request

Postby rp76226 » 28 Oct 2014, 15:58

I certainly appreciate your reply, but it leads to more questions. Please verify, based on what you said about how you view the name now in Latin, what you now think the Italian translation of the first name of the groom's mother is - Santa or Giovanna or something else? Since it seems to occur for both the bride and groom here, how commonplace was a double surname? Was it customary for church records to leave out the maiden names of mothers? Was there ever a custom that picked up the father's and mother's surname as the combined surname of their children? Civil records of later generations had the name as Pagliarello Puma as opposed to Puma Pagliarello. Eventually, some descendants' Italian civil records changed to just Puma while others kept the Pagliarello Puma. All the American immigrants are just Puma. My father always suspected that the Puma name was originally Spanish because he thought the name in Spanish translated to apple, but I've checked and it does not according to Google Translate. I'm not sure if there is a way to trace the original roots of a surname to a country.


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