Help: Family Mystery

Are you looking for an Italian surname? Do you need more information about your family heritage?
This is the right place to start your genealogy search.
Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 13 Oct 2014, 23:46

Hello!

So I have a series of hard to read documents leading to a bit of a mystery I am trying to solve in my family tree, and some outside input might help. Below I provide the documents and what I think they say:

I got my hands on a copy of my great grandfathers birth certificate, his name was Giuseppe Carlucci....only, the birth certificate for his birth-date in Rome (20/9/1871) lists Giuseppe Demiliani. Apparently he was born an orphan, brought in, and given Demiliani as his name.
Giu birth 1.jpg


Then in 1877 he is claimed by a woman named Filomena Pallotta as her natural child. (it may also indicate her fathers name)
Giu birth 2.jpg


Then in 1880 there is some kind of court judgement from the Tribunale Civ e Corr of Rome whereby his name is changed to Carlucci. I cannot tell if this is because his natural parents finally got married and legitimized him, or if its because he was adopted, or what.
Giu birth 3.jpg


Finally, to add to the confusion, there is an supreme court of Rome case from 1879 - the judgement for which went unreported but there is a rule of law that comes out (could it be related to this? - page 427 of this free online book: http://books.google.ca/books?id=Bu0ZAAA ... ta&f=false )

Basically I need help.

Is his name really Carlucci or was he adopted? Were those his natural parents?
How do I find out what exactly happened? Can I ever know?
Is my interpretation of the documents close?
Anything you can tell me/help me with would help....since my last name is actually Carlucci, whether or not this is my legitimate lineal name means a lot to me.

Thanks!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
Posts: 5432
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 00:00
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby liviomoreno » 14 Oct 2014, 07:57

No mystery...

In the birth record Giuseppe was registered as a foundling the surname Demiliani was "decided" by the Official.
Filomena Pallotta recognized him in 1877 and his surname became Pallotta
The document dated Oct 14 1880 states that he was legitimated by Pietro Carlucci and Filomena Pallotta (his natural parents), therefore his surname became Carlucci

Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 14 Oct 2014, 08:35

liviomoreno wrote:No mystery...

In the birth record Giuseppe was registered as a foundling the surname Demiliani was "decided" by the Official.
Filomena Pallotta recognized him in 1877 and his surname became Pallotta
The document dated Oct 14 1880 states that he was legitimated by Pietro Carlucci and Filomena Pallotta (his natural parents), therefore his surname became Carlucci


If you are sure they are his real parents, then that solves part of it. So I appreciate you being able to understand that note.

But that doesn't explain how he was legitimized? Is the note an indication of a Court order or that his parents got married?
Is there any way to actually find that out?
If its a court order can I get that decision? of if its marriage, is the date in the note the date of the parents marriage?

The mystery for me was partially whether he was actually Carlucci (because I didn't understand the record) but also what happened and how I learn more/investigate it. Its the unanswered questions that can lead me to more family history.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
Posts: 5432
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 00:00
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby liviomoreno » 14 Oct 2014, 10:17

The 1880 doc is hard to read, in any case it is a Court order following the legitimization of Giuseppe due to his parents marriage.
Any notation that modifies an official birth record must be issued by a Court order.
I doubt that you may find the Court order

Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 30 Oct 2014, 01:47

liviomoreno wrote:The 1880 doc is hard to read, in any case it is a Court order following the legitimization of Giuseppe due to his parents marriage.
Any notation that modifies an official birth record must be issued by a Court order.
I doubt that you may find the Court order



Well I've searched the marriage records for 1880 and 1879 - no marriage exists.

The note also reads differently; usually a legitimation note says "X was legitimated by the marriage of Y and Z on [date]" where as this says:

Seguito a sentenza pronunziata l'8 giugno anno corrente dal Tribunale Civ e Corr di questo citta [Rome] ~ il ______ bambino _____ legitimato da Carlucci Pietro e da Pallotta Filomena = Registro No. 140 Serie A Parte 2a


That registry number also isn't a reference to a marriage record, as the record 140 in part 2 of the 1880 marriages is not related to this; meaning its a reference to a court judgement, which is unusual.

Could I find that court document? What do I do here :/
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

User avatar
PippoM
Master
Master
Posts: 2154
Joined: 25 Aug 2004, 00:00
Location: Roma, Italia
Contact:

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby PippoM » 30 Oct 2014, 09:40

I think the registry number references a birth record, not a marriage record. In it, you should find a transcription of the Court Order.
I have one doubt about this matter: Giusppe was "recognized as a natural child" by Filomena, whereas he was "legitimized" by Filomena and Pietro. So, I think Giuseppe actually was Filomena's son, whereas not necessarily Pietro's. Maybe the Court Order states something more.
One question for you is: how could you search records from Roma?
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

Certificate requests and genealogical researches in Italy.
Translation of your (old) documents and letters.
Legal assistance in Italy for your Italian citizenship.

Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 30 Oct 2014, 17:14

PippoM wrote:I think the registry number references a birth record, not a marriage record. In it, you should find a transcription of the Court Order.
I have one doubt about this matter: Giusppe was "recognized as a natural child" by Filomena, whereas he was "legitimized" by Filomena and Pietro. So, I think Giuseppe actually was Filomena's son, whereas not necessarily Pietro's. Maybe the Court Order states something more.
One question for you is: how could you search records from Roma?


But Giuseppe's birth record (which is the record that comes from) isn't registry No. 140. Are you suggesting he has two atti di nascita? :s

"Legitimized" usually means child of a marriage between those two parties - which is odd. I am fairly certain he is Pietro's son because or else it would not be "legitimate" but I would like to find further documentation to be sure.

I can search most civil records in Rome through LDS (they have microfilms of it all) however finding a recording of the court document would be difficult.

I'm thinking maybe more could be contained in the allegati? But since it happened 9 years after his birth, I am wondering if it would be placed with the allegati 9 years earlier.

So confusing, I definitly need advice :/
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
Posts: 5432
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 00:00
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby liviomoreno » 30 Oct 2014, 17:25

You may search the record 140 on the book register for 1880, Series A, part 2.

Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 30 Oct 2014, 18:14

liviomoreno wrote:You may search the record 140 on the book register for 1880, Series A, part 2.


So even though he was born in 1871, there would be a second atto di nascita in Part 2 of 1880? (LDS doesn't list a Part 2 for 1880, meaning it may either not exist or not be on mircroflm :/)

However, they do have Allegati for atti di nascita for both 1871 and 1880, so would something be there.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
Posts: 5432
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 00:00
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby liviomoreno » 30 Oct 2014, 18:20

Anizio wrote:
However, they do have Allegati for atti di nascita for both 1871 and 1880, so would something be there.


Yes, I would search 1880...

Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 08 Nov 2014, 20:31

UPDATE: This mystery isn't turning out to be as easy as some people thought when first responding to my post:

Recap of facts:
1 - Giuseppe Carlucci born Giuseppe Demiliani 1871, in Rome, an Orphan.
2 - 1877, Filomena Pallotta fu Domenico reclaimed Giuseppe as her natural son
1 - 1880, some sort of Court order or judgement resulted in Giuseppe being declared the son of Pietro Carlucci and Filomena Pallotta and his name was changed to Giuseppe Carlucci.

Theories most people went with:
1 - Parents got married making him legitimate

After research into marriage records between 1871-1880 for Rome
1 - Only 1 record of a Filomena Pallotta
2 - Only 1 record of a Pietro Carlucci.

Problem is....Filomena Pallotta fu Domenico got married in 1876....to Giuseppe Calabresi. Pietro Carlucci di Clito on other hand got married in 1877 to Rosa Carboni.

New Questions:
1 - could this be the right Filomena Pallotta? (seems quite possible since I didn't see any other Pallotta's of any name with Domenico as a father)
2 - could this be right right Pietro Carlucci? (much less certain)
3 - Could the note regarding a court order recognizing Giuseppe Carlucci as the son of Pietro Carlucci and Filomena Pallotta be the result of. instead of them marrying each other, neither of them marrying each other but the mother trying to make the father of her child recognized on the birth certificate even though they both married different people? Perhaps the father didn't want the illegitimate son recognized since the Clito Carlucci family was quite prominent.

A complicated mystery. I still plan to search allegati when I can.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

ABdS
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Nov 2014, 21:44

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby ABdS » 10 Nov 2014, 21:54

The situation is really clear :)
The Tribunale Civile e Penale di Roma was called by the mother for ask the recognition for the paternity.

This was done by the mother for sure as "investment" take in cosideration that Pietro is the first male of a rich and important family, the father is at time also the doctor of the Holy Pope.

Tomorrow i will go the the civil office and i'll take the copy in good resolution of Mr Giuseppe Carlucci so with this i can read the "record at margin" about the recognition, with it i will try to extract the judjment from the States Archive, but take in consideration that many of the documents are lost for the Tribunale Civile e Penale di Roma.

By the way if the name wrote in the act is Pietro di Clito from Rome we can be sure 100% that the father is the Pietro Carlucci first child of the Rector Clito Carluci, it is a totaly uncommon name and it is not a real name but a diminutive used all the life by Clito Carlucci. It is usage of this family Carlucci to use a diminutive instead the real name.

Hope to come with good news :)

Bye

PS Dorry for my english is not the best i know ;)

ABdS
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Nov 2014, 21:44

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby ABdS » 10 Nov 2014, 22:12

Anizio wrote:UPDATE: This mystery isn't turning out to be as easy as some people thought when first responding to my post:

Recap of facts:
1 - Giuseppe Carlucci born Giuseppe Demiliani 1871, in Rome, an Orphan.
2 - 1877, Filomena Pallotta fu Domenico reclaimed Giuseppe as her natural son
1 - 1880, some sort of Court order or judgement resulted in Giuseppe being declared the son of Pietro Carlucci and Filomena Pallotta and his name was changed to Giuseppe Carlucci.

Theories most people went with:
1 - Parents got married making him legitimate

After research into marriage records between 1871-1880 for Rome
1 - Only 1 record of a Filomena Pallotta
2 - Only 1 record of a Pietro Carlucci.

Problem is....Filomena Pallotta fu Domenico got married in 1876....to Giuseppe Calabresi. Pietro Carlucci di Clito on other hand got married in 1877 to Rosa Carboni.

New Questions:
1 - could this be the right Filomena Pallotta? (seems quite possible since I didn't see any other Pallotta's of any name with Domenico as a father)
2 - could this be right right Pietro Carlucci? (much less certain)
3 - Could the note regarding a court order recognizing Giuseppe Carlucci as the son of Pietro Carlucci and Filomena Pallotta be the result of. instead of them marrying each other, neither of them marrying each other but the mother trying to make the father of her child recognized on the birth certificate even though they both married different people? Perhaps the father didn't want the illegitimate son recognized since the Clito Carlucci family was quite prominent.

A complicated mystery. I still plan to search allegati when I can.

The situation is really clear :)
The Tribunale Civile e Penale di Roma was called by the mother for ask the recognition for the paternity.

This was done by the mother for sure as "investment" take in cosideration that Pietro is the first male of a rich and important family, the father is at time also the doctor of the Holy Pope, the grandphater (Giuseppe) was a doctor and his brother is an important inquisitor and loyer of the church. Anyway at time DNA test don't exist so the only way to say if Pietro is or not one Carlucci of my family is to do a comprative test of our DNA :) By e legal point ov view the declaration at time was done with people evidence, but the true can be also different from what the court have extabilished.

Tomorrow i will go the the civil office and i'll take the copy in good resolution of Mr Giuseppe Carlucci so with this i can read the "record at margin" about the recognition, with it i will try to extract the judjment from the States Archive, but take in consideration that many of the documents are lost for the Tribunale Civile e Penale di Roma.

By the way if the name wrote in the act is Pietro di Clito from Rome we can be sure 100% that the father is the Pietro Carlucci first child of the Rector Clito Carluci, it is a totaly uncommon name and it is not a real name but a diminutive used all the life by Clito Carlucci. It is usage of this family Carlucci to use a diminutive instead the real name.

Hope to come with good news :)

Bye

PS Dorry for my english is not the best i know ;)

ABdS
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Nov 2014, 21:44

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby ABdS » 11 Nov 2014, 12:28

I have retrieved the documents from the Comune di Roma, I read the transcription of the Act and I confirm that Giuseppe (1871) and Maria (1869) was recognized by the tribunal as natural child of Pietro Carlucci, son of "Commendatore Clito Carlucci", profession of Pietro at time certified in the documents was "benestante" that is something like "rich". He live at time in Panteon square in Rome.
With time I'll try to find the act of the tribunal.
Nice to have you in the family :D

Anizio
Elite
Elite
Posts: 398
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 22:37
Location: Canada

Re: Help: Family Mystery

Postby Anizio » 11 Nov 2014, 14:01

Mystery Solved!

Thanks ABdS.

I look forward to seeing what you found.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information


Return to “Italian Genealogy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 5 guests