Define "Blood Relationship"

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rp76226
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Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby rp76226 » 17 Oct 2014, 01:21

Here's my example. A man and a woman marry. They are not blood related. None of their respective relatives are related to each other's spouse. They are "in-laws".
The couple has a child. The child is blood related to each parent and each parent's relatives. Now all the in-laws share a common blood relationship - the couple's child. So is every relative of the husband and wife (including the husband and wife) now blood related to each other (through the couple's child)?

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby Anizio » 17 Oct 2014, 01:51

No, the husband and wife and their family are never blood related unless they were related before they had the child.

Blood related pretty much means related by genes, DNA. People not related by blood are related by marriage (ie. inlaws, spouses)
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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby carubia » 17 Oct 2014, 02:09

As Anzio pointed out, being blood related means having a common ancestor, not a common descendant.

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby Anizio » 17 Oct 2014, 02:13

Also, according to Italian law (at least for a while, not sure if its current or how old it is) being "blood related" in terms of being family, only extends 7 generations. After that, legally in Italy, I think you are no longer considered family - so 7 generations forward and 7 back.

Sort of an arbitrary limit, but without it we are all technically "blood related"
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby carubia » 17 Oct 2014, 02:14

What would be the context in which that definition of blood related would apply under Italian law?

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby erudita74 » 17 Oct 2014, 02:16

Anizio wrote:Also, according to Italian law (at least for a while, not sure if its current or how old it is) being "blood related" in terms of being family, only extends 7 generations. After that, legally in Italy, I think you are no longer considered family - so 7 generations forward and 7 back.

Sort of an arbitrary limit, but without it we are all technically "blood related"



Could you provide with the source of your information?

Erudita

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby Anizio » 17 Oct 2014, 02:32

I read it in a genealogy book two years ago.
So the context was probably the 1800s; again I'm not sure what the modern laws are.

But it was for the context of marriage - to prevent inbreeding you were not allowed to marry within 7 generations without special dispensation. I'm not sure if it was state law or canon law, but I know it was applied.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby rp76226 » 17 Oct 2014, 02:35

Thanks everyone. Common ancestor seems to describe it best.

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby carubia » 17 Oct 2014, 02:47

It's rather hard to believe that people couldn't marry within 7 generations. How could someone tell just by looking at the documents submitted to get married that 2 people share a common ancestor that far back? It's hard to determine that now, even with all the genealogy information available. For example, even using the earliest Italian civil records that exist for Sicily, the farthest back I can go is 7 generations.

Moreover, I see marriages in 19th-c. Sicilian records between even 1st cousins all the time and never in any marriage record is there mention of any special dispensation required.

erudita74
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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby erudita74 » 17 Oct 2014, 05:22

For anyone interested, the following pertains to church and not civil marriages and is taken from an article called " Land, Kinship, and Consanguineous Marriage in Italy from the Seventeenth to the Nineteenth Centuries". It was written by Raul Merzario and is found in the Journal of Family History, Vol 15, Number 4, pages 529-546.

On page 530-31, the author states:
"According to the legal system drawn up by the Church after the Council of Church, marriages of first, second, and third cousins were outlawed, as were marriages between first, second, or third cousins of a deceased spouse, in the case of second marriages, ... For example, the Church would consider two people to be third cousins if they were four generations away from a common ancestor, the father or mother of their great grandfather or great grandmother.

Dispensation from the church prohibition on marriage between kin was granted fairly easily. A number of reasons were considered to justify the granting of dispensation. One of these was the limited size of a village of residence. If a couple lived in a place that was so small that they could not find a potential wife or husband who was not in some way related, they might be allowed to marry despite their kinship. Another reason for dispensation could be lack of a dowry or a very small dowry. A male relative could then marry the woman, thus solving a very delicate situation.

The author then goes on to state on p. 534, that even if it was known that the couple intending to marry was in some way related, it was still very difficult to work out the extent to which they were related, on the basis of available documents. Vital event registries were only introduced after the Council of Trent, but all three fundamental registers (baptism, burial, and marriage) are hardly ever found together until the early 1700s, and even then not in all cases. Those administering justice were only able to check data on kin and genealogy beginning in the eighteenth century, since reconstructing four generations requires a whole century of coverage.

The above info may be a bit astray from the original post, but I do think it relates to some of carubia's comments.

Erudita

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Re: Define "Blood Relationship"

Postby erudita74 » 17 Oct 2014, 13:29

Anizio wrote:I read it in a genealogy book two years ago.
So the context was probably the 1800s; again I'm not sure what the modern laws are.

But it was for the context of marriage - to prevent inbreeding you were not allowed to marry within 7 generations without special dispensation. I'm not sure if it was state law or canon law, but I know it was applied.



The following article refers to 7 generations-but it was from much earlier times:

xhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consanguinity

"Under Roman civil law, which early canon law of the Catholic Church followed, couples were forbidden to marry if they were within four degrees of consanguinity.[5] In the ninth century the church raised the number of prohibited degrees to seven and changed the method by which they were calculated.[6] Eventually the nobility became too interrelated to marry as the pool of non-related prospective spouses became smaller. It was either defy the church's position or look elsewhere for eligible marriage candidates.[7] In 1215 the Fourth Lateran Council made what they believed was a necessary change to canon law reducing the number of prohibited degrees of consanguinity from seven back to four"

The references for the above are at the bottom of the wikipedia page

Erudita


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