re:lds digitized records for avellino

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re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 01:23

i check lds daily for updates regarding additional digitized records for the province of avellino.there is a very small database available -but its very limited and contains none of the comuni i'm researching(lapio,luogosano,san mango sul calore and taurasi).whats odd is that all these comunes are in the very same vicinity as the ones currently available.they are all tiny comunes which could easily have been digitized for online inclusion when the others were.i know its all about rights and licensing and all that.but its a shame theres so little currently available for this province,which contributed a large amount of immigrants from southern italy.i no longer do the lds microfilm shuffle.not worth it as i have so little left to research and the film costs have doubled over the last few years.but it would be nice to see the records for avellino made available above and beyond whats presently available.if anyone out there has more information regarding updates to this collection(lds is always very vague)please let me know.thanks

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby Anizio » 21 Oct 2014, 04:21

LDS relies on mostly volunteers; just because one town was done does not mean the next town over was done.

For example, in Pesaro and Urbino were done but only a small part so that towns next to my grandparents town were done, but not their town.

If you are unwilling to order microfilms, write letters, or search in person. Your last remaining options are to have patience for microfilms to be digitized (there is a long list of records to be done) or to wait for www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it to include Avellino records.

genealogy takes time and effort. sometimes money.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 06:26

have done everything you suggested-and more.i know the whole drill about volunteers at lds.have written many letters to comuni in avellino.many letters.can't afford the transatlantic trip for sure.and at 65,after pursuing my research for nearly 20 years,time is running out.don't have the"waiting time"a 30 year old researcher just starting out would have.and the antenati website,whom i've also contacted many times,is not even remotely close to doing anything with avellino,according to them.ironically,both lds and antenati have done a lot with messina,the other equation in my paternal italian ancestral search(my grandmothers lines),but as she was born ignoti genitori,a particularly persistent problem in this part of italy-making research problematic at best-i'm literally spinning my wheels.the one area i might have some small amount of success-avellino-is out of reach.but there is always hope.maybe by my 70th or 75th birthday these records may magically appear.a case of too little too late.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby Anizio » 21 Oct 2014, 06:52

Well I'm not sure what you expect. Reality is what it is.

Your last remaining option is to pay someone, hire a professional or something - although you'd have to be willing to pay a pretty penny.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 07:09

did that years ago its not cost effective-like film ordering.like throwing money into a pit at this point.the messina equation,as i said,is pretty much a deadend no matter how much time and/or money i have put out.i have very little left to do in avellino,which is why its a shame nothing much is on the horizon for online records there.not just for myself,but for the many other researchers descended from immigrants from this region.sicily and campania,along with calabria and maybe abruzzi,contributed the majority of italian immigration. so neglect of online availability of civil records in these regions is criminal.but over many years of family research,i find italians are not nearly as vigilant regarding their options as the french canadians are.this is my maternal side.the drouin collection,containing virtually every birth,marriage,and death for the province of quebec,starting at the founding of the colony ca.1620 and continuing up to 1940,is available online at ancestry.com.there are also numerous genealogical books like tanguay,jette,and the prdh,which cover actual records of family data-not just how to tutorials.most anything you want or need,with a little persistence,can be found.i have 1 half filled 5 generational chart documenting my paternal italian ancestry.i have over 200 charts,many completely filled for my french canadian ancestors,many records going back into 17th c.france.its ironic that such a small ethnic group like the french canadians have accomplished so much more than that of the much larger italians.but as you said,it is what it is.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 08:26

whats sad is that italian researchers have so few options.other than waiting for sites like lds or http://www.antenati to sparingly add the occasional record here and there,we're pretty much relegated to writing letters of inquiry(oftentimes with no response)or posting in desperation on messageboards,which rarely if ever yield results.and while how to guides like the excellent book by trafford cole on researching italian records are great starter tools,a real dyed in the wool enthusiast soon gets beyond this.one has to be very ingenious in ways to get results-ways not found or mentioned in start up guides.italian genealogical research,unlike french canadian,british, and other ethnicities,has a long way to go.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby carubia » 21 Oct 2014, 08:53

I admit that I've never tried French Canadian or British genealogical research, but I don't feel like we are so restricted with Italian records. For example, the LDS church has more catalogs online of Italian records than for any other country except the US. If anything, I feel spoiled by how easy it is to find Italian records. It is way, way easier than doing, say, German genealogy.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 09:12

with the advantage of being well versed and expert in both,i can say that access to french canadian vital records is far superior to anything available in italian genealogical research.been at both for nearly 20 years.italian paternal french canadian maternal.i think the big difference is the attitude of archivists in quebec and italy.in quebec a concentrated effort was made,combining individual genealogical societies with the government,in making these records available publicly,and at minimal cost,to anyone interested in doing the research.you might say a labor of love.on the other side of the coin,and especially in regards to access at lds,the civil and state archives in italy seem to be playing a wait and see scenario.hold out for more profit from agreements made years ago.lds has the films,but the italian archives evidently have the final say in how and when these records be made available to the public digitally.and all these holdouts for records 200 years old and in continually deteriorating condition.it appears that,unlike the enthusiam of the archivists in quebec,who take pride in the fact that the descendants of this hardy and proud ethnic group love discovering their heritage,descendants of the original 17 century colonists,the italian archivists could care less about the interest shown in their ancestry by the descendants of the italian immigrants who arrived here in the late 19th and early 20th century.could care less.as i said,no comparison.and i speak from experience.sad but true.once you've had the experience and privilege of french canadian research-and the results that can be achieved,going back into 17th century france,everything else pales by comparison.here i am,struggling to fill out 1 single 5 generation chart,which only goes back to my 3rd great grandparents,yet i've managed to go back 10 or more generations on my maternal side.over 200 charts at least partially completed.as i said,no comparison.but none of this helps with my original query regarding avellino civil records online and their lack of availability.don't get me wrong.i love my italian ancestry and take great pride in my research,but to say i'm dissapointed by the attitude and lack of enthusiasm of the italian archives to do a better job of making our heritage available for direct consultation would be an understatement.maybe being 65 and 20 years into this,and knowing time is limited,unlike that of a researcher half my age and just starting out,with more to look forward to in research progress possibilities in the future,colors my views.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby Italysearcher » 21 Oct 2014, 11:57

I find it amazing that you are complaining about the accessibility of Italian records, either by microfilm or on line. Everywhere I have searched there is a cost for every record. English indexes are poor and it is costly to acquire records for all siblings etc.
Italian records are interlocking, one record leading to the next in perfect order. And they are FREE. The cost of the films is small compared to what you would pay in most other countries.
If you want to complete your research I suggest you contact Joe De SImone (see the ad in the margin) as he lives in Avellino. He won't accept your search if he doesn't feel there is a good chance of aquiring the records you need.
Ann Tatangelo
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ANNOYING THE SAINTS - Stories of my Life in Italy. http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-b ... ly/7731505

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 14:05

like i said ann,i work in italian and french canadian research.there simply is no equivalent to french canadian research.i've"paid my dues"so to speak.i know nothing stays the same-but lds film ordering became non profitable and problematic.been there done that.for many years! moving at a snails pace ordering films that increased in price and mostly yielded scant information-or often nothing.genitori ignoti was a constant stumbling block,not to mention water damaged and damaged or missing volumes.for less effort and no cost,thanks to the dedicated researchers in quebec,not to mention the tireless efforts of genealogical societies in the us and canada,and at virtually no cost,a researcher can put together family lines going back oftentimes 8-10 generations by putting in the effort.and no need to hire costly researchers.you can do it yourself,which is what i prefer anyway.more satisfaction doing it yourself.i have no problem paying for copies,postage,etc. but at this stage of the game,nearly 20 years on,definitely not looking for research thats not cost effective and rewarding.i've heard of joe.i've heard he's good.i'm sure he is.but i think personal genealogical research,in this day and age,should be more accessible online than it is-especially in italian research.and i'll say it again.if a tiny group of dedicated and hard working individuals like the french canadians,through love and perseverance,can make their history through vital records available to all,whats wrong with the much larger italian population in the usa getting together to make their history more accessible-through actual vital records and not just rely on how to manuals,message boards,outside researchers,and the lds films? unfortunately all this dialogue has not lead to one comment from anyone regarding my original question:the status of upcoming additions to what is currently available for avellino civil records in the digitized collection online at lds.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Oct 2014, 15:57

consider this.lds has done a great job in presenting and making available italian civil records to researchers and the general public.its commendable.but lds is not a strictly italian research site.it covers many parts of the world and is stretched thin at times because of this.what is needed is an online database created by and for italian researchers.as was done in quebec,with a cooperative effort between the quebec archives and genealogical societies,as well as countless volunteers,the only way such an italian archival database could be created would be through a joint effort between the various provincial and regional archives and whatever local genealogical societies and volunteers would be willing to participate,both in italy and the usa.but knowing the illogical and confusing way the records offices and archives in italy work,this most likely will never happen.too many issues involved.and by nature,italians are neither as organized for the common good nor interested in furthering the cause of accessible records as the french canadians.they still think locally in italy,to the detriment of the common good.unfortunately these issues will not be resolved in my time.one can only hope for change.i'm 65 so its probably going to be the next generation of researchers who might benefit from any possible future collaborations.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby carubia » 22 Oct 2014, 07:25

Maybe French Canadian genealogy is an exceptional case. I haven't heard of genealogical research being organized to that extent anywhere else. Certainly the records in the US are a mess. There are civil records online for Italy going back to 1820, whereas for my GM born in the US in 1906 there was never a birth record, and this was not unusual.

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby Italysearcher » 22 Oct 2014, 10:47

Again we are talking church records for French Canadian records NOT the civil records created by the Government. Catholic church records are not usually available on film or on line because the catholic church has decided that they will not be reproduced in that way. Those that are there usually have been copied by people who have made them available to LDS.
It is precisely because civil records are held at the local level (with copies at the State level) that has made Italian research so easy to follow. Your problem with 'genitori ignoti' is a common one that is not usually able to be solved. Anonymity is just that. Even when it was common knowledge who the parents were at the time, officially they were 'ignoti' and this is something you will not solve.
Ann Tatangelo
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ANNOYING THE SAINTS - Stories of my Life in Italy. http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-b ... ly/7731505

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 22 Oct 2014, 13:53

the church records and civil records in quebec were one and the same anne.no division as in italy.the record was created in the parish and sent as a duplicate to the civil office.so the 2 were virtually the same.in 1940 the drouin collection was created.all births,marriages,and deaths for the province of quebec,including outlying areas like acadie(maritimes)and french settlements in ontario and even further west,were filmed.covering the years from the earliest settlements ca.1620-1640 and right up to 1940 or so.this collection was only available in quebec for many years.then it became available at certain french genealogical societies in the usa as well.for the last few years its been available at ancestry.imagine a complete collection of your ancestors,available on film that covers your ancestry back nearly 400 years!all in one place!no searching through myriads of films at lds or having to borrow films at increasing rates.i have free access to ancestry as my local library has a subscription.but even for a nominal yearly fee that ancestry charges,its well worth the price.if only such a situation existed with italian records! you may think italian research is relatively easy and accessible,but if you were familiar with french canadian research,you'd see what i mean.italian research would appear tedious and costly by comparison.but as i said before,i think its a difference in approach and attitude.the french see genealogy as a labor of love,even necessity,and have gone to great lengths to preserve it for anyone willing to take the time and do the research.in italy records keeping are seen as a necessity,not just existing so genealogists can have easy access.also,unlike quebec records,theres no uniformity in italy.records,as i've found,vary greatly from one area to another.just as theres never been a real consensus about italian unity(italians see themselves as neapolitans,sicilians,romans,tuscans,etc),their attitude towards record keeping-and availability-mirrors this attitude.this is why i believe the archives and genealogical societies in italy could never work together for the common good and create a database similiar to the drouin collection.not possible.this is why lds had to step in and offer the next best thing.but as i said,lds has many irons in the fire.it covers ancestry of many other countries and cannot devote itself to italian research solely.its spread too thin.other than the lds films,its unlikely italian researchers will ever have many other options to work with,besides the messageboards and starter/how to manuals.or paid research experts.and regarding"ignoti genitori" in italian research.for some reason it was rampant in sicily in particular.whats really frustrating is that i can't even get past my paternal grandmother,who was born of unknown parents.its not like it was my 2nd or 3rd greats.i'm fighting and scratching just to find a bit of information for her adoptive family!in quebec,even if a child was born of unmarried parents,the parents names were still often found.just the fact they were unmarried was noted.at least the family line could continue.in italy,the line is dead.the records were sealed.finito.and in uncovering 8-10 generations of ancestors in my french lines.i found only 2"anonyme" or unknown births.and that was back 5 or 6 generations,which was hardly a major issue.even then i still found the names of the parents.and here,in my italian research,i couldnt get further back than my own paternal grandmother!

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Re: re:lds digitized records for avellino

Postby saccolicious » 27 Oct 2014, 20:19

If the birth record says "ignoti genitori", it is unfortunately true that you will not be able to go past that. A lot of times, the baby was just left at the doorsteps of someone else wrapped in a blanket, and it is true that the parents are unknown, and will never be known. The LDS church has done a fantastic job at making Italian civil records available, and I would not expect church baptismal records to have any additional information. No record will have the names of the parents unless the baby was legitimately adopted, which is not too common.

In addition, one film costs $7.50 which is unbelievably affordable, compared to many other resources which require a monthly subscription that could cost $20+/month. There are plenty of countries that you will have to go overseas to look at their records, but for Italy, the LDS is spot on with what they have available and their accessibility.

Having said that, I'm also researching Taurasi and if there's something in particular you're looking for, I can scan the records (since I have all the records available at my FHC), and see if I can help out.
See my Pescara site: noccianogenealogy.wordpress.com

My areas of research:
Province of Pescara: towns of Civitaquana, Nocciano, Catignano, Pianella
Province of Avellino: towns of Montemiletto, Torre le Nocelle, Taurasi


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