Parentage of Giovanni Lira

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ltramposch97
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Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby ltramposch97 » 21 Oct 2014, 06:25

This question is posed to those folks living in Italy as Giovanni did not immigrate to the US, there would be no US Records. Here is my issue:

There appears to be some confusion with regard to my 2G Grandfather Giovanni Lira’s parentage. His death record indicates that his father was Vittore Lira, which is also found on all of his children’s birth records. However there were two Vittore Liras living in Giaroni at the time of his birth. His death record also indicates that his mother was Giacoma Bee. However from experience with these records and from what I’ve heard genealogical experts on Italy, these records are only as accurate as the knowledge of the person reporting the event. Death records tend to be the least accurate and depend on how well the person reporting it knew the deceased.

From his children’s birth records we know that Giovanni’s wife was Angela Venzon and that his father’s name was Vittore which leaves the question of his mother.
According to 1906 Fonzaso, Atti di Morte no. 60, as reported by Giovanni Corso, age 40 and recorded by Giulio Cesare Ravizza:

Giovanni Lira, age 66, born in Fonzaso and residing in Fonzaso at Via Giaroni 566, the son of the late Vittore and late Giacoma Bee who resided in Fonzaso and spouse of Angela Venzon, passed away on 24 July 1906 at 5PM. This makes Giovanni’s calculated year of birth 1840.
Giovanni’s children and some grandchildren were born at Via Giaroni 566.

In Giaroni at the time we have:
Vittore Lira no. 1 who was married to Margherita Bee daughter of Antonio Bee and Giacoma Bee of Sovramonte, Belluno, Italy.

1880 Fonzaso, Atti di Morte no. 10
Vittore Lira, 63, born in Fonzaso and residing in Fonzaso at Via Giaroni 569 ( note this is a different address), son of the late Pasquale Lira and late Margherita Pellin who resided in Fonzaso, spouse of Margherita Bee, passed away on 20 January at 7:30 AM. Vittore’s estimated year of birth would be 1816.

Since Giovanni Corso who reported Giovanni Lira’s death was not his contemporary Giovanni Lira being 26 years his junior, could he have made an error regarding the name of Giovanni’s mother or his Address? This would seem the most likely scenario.
However, the transcript of the death record of Margherita Bee (his wife) below states:

1911 Fonzaso, Atti di Morte no.46
Margherita Bee, 80, born in Sovramonte and living in Fonzaso at Via Giaroni 566 (the same address as Giovanni’s family) daughter of the late Antonio who lived in Sovramonte and the late Bee Giacoma who lived in Fonzaso, widow of the Vittore Lira passed away on 30 Jan at 1 AM
Margherita was living at the same address given for Giovanni Lira (Vittore was not) which might suggest the possibility that she may have moved in with her son after the death of her husband (even though it was more common for grown children to live with their parents until the parents died). However if Margherita was 80 at the time of her death, her estimated birth year would be 1830, which would put her at age 9 when Giovanni Lira was born. Her death was reported by Pietro Susin age 35. What is the likelihood that another error was committed (either her age or address)? She would have been 14 years younger than her husband.

However, Fonzaso Records show that Vittore Lira and Margherita had 9 children (excluding Giovanni) born at regular intervals between 1856 and 1874. This seems to fit with the approximate birthdate for Margherita and had Giovanni been their child, there would have been a 16 year gap between him and the next oldest child. It seems unlikely that this was his family.
Then there is the second Vittore Lire who married Antonia Fusinato.who had 6 known children between 1838 and 1852 and there is a gap between Antonio born in 1838 and Catterina born in 1842 into which Giovanni would fit nicely, if this were in fact his family.

However there are no publicly available civil records for the second Vittore Lira and his wife Antonia Fusinato, Antonia appears to have passed away prior to 1871 when civil records were required, she is given a deceased at the time of her son Nicolo's marriage in 1872. However, Vittore is given as living for the marriage and death's of several of his children in 1874 and deceased at the time off the death of son Nicolo in 1890. Presumeably he died within that span but there is no record. Oddly Nicolo’s address at the time of his death in 1890 indicates that his address was 569 Via Giaroni, the address given on the first Vittore Lira’s death record. Nicolo’s children appear to have been born at the same address. Another son of Vittore and Antonia Pasquale’s first born son was given as being born at Via Giaroni 566, and his second son at 569. The rest appear to have been born in Arsie.

It appears that one would have to find a record of birth or marriage for Giovanni in order to determine who his parents actually were.

carubia
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Re: Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby carubia » 21 Oct 2014, 08:46

I don't have any additional info for you but I just want to respond to some of your questions and give some other thoughts.

ltramposch97 wrote:This question is posed to those folks living in Italy as Giovanni did not immigrate to the US, there would be no US Records.
Since almost all the records that we use for genealogical research these days are online or on microfilm, why the limitation to people who live in Italy? Many fine researchers here live outside Italy. OTOH, Italian researchers can, and do, access US records online, too.

ltramposch97 wrote:His death record indicates that his father was Vittore Lira, which is also found on all of his children’s birth records.
So the birth records from that comune at that time generally listed the fathers of the parents? Did all these births occur between 1866 and 1874?

ltramposch97 wrote:However from experience with these records and from what I’ve heard genealogical experts on Italy, these records are only as accurate as the knowledge of the person reporting the event. Death records tend to be the least accurate and depend on how well the person reporting it knew the deceased.
Yes, that is true for death records. Marriage records, however, are somewhat reliable since in order to get married the bride and groom had to present their birth records. This didn't prevent errors from creeping in anyway, especially if the birth records had errors, but still, marriage records are usually reasonably accurate.

ltramposch97 wrote:What is the likelihood that another error was committed (either her age or address)?
Very high. These are death records. Take the ages on them with a grain of salt. Giovanni could've been a decade or more younger than 66. OTOH, Margherita could've had her first child at age 14 or 15.

ltramposch97 wrote:She would have been 14 years younger than her husband.
I wouldn't bat an eyelash if it said she were 30 years younger.

ltramposch97 wrote:However, Fonzaso Records show that Vittore Lira and Margherita had 9 children (excluding Giovanni) born at regular intervals between 1856 and 1874.
How far back do their civil birth records go?

ltramposch97 wrote:This seems to fit with the approximate birthdate for Margherita and had Giovanni been their child, there would have been a 16 year gap between him and the next oldest child.
Assuming that his age was accurate on his death record. What are the implied years of birth for Giovanni in his children's birth records? What is the year of his oldest child's birth?

ltramposch97
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Re: Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby ltramposch97 » 21 Oct 2014, 23:33

First I did not intend to limit responses to those from Italy, was just trying to convey that Giovanni was not an immigrant, he was born in, lived and died in Giaroni di Fonzaso, therefore there would be no point in searching US records, sorry if I caused you confusion, I was not attempting to be exclusive. Also since Giovanni was born in 1839 there before Civil Records were required, I assume that Italian church records would be the only route to pursue.

With regard to his children, the one's thatI know of all were born in 1869 (my gg) or later. Online Records for Fonzaso are available from 1871 forward, so there is no available marriage record online for Giovanni and his wife Angela Venzon. Giovanni's childrens birth records all give his father as Vittore, but that is the problem with their being 2 Vittore's living in Giaroni in the same time period. I can't figure out who Giovanni's mother was.


Giovanni was born in 1939 (according to famiy trees belonging to other decendants 26 Aug 1839) He age at the time of death on 24 Jul 1906 was given as 66, est birth year 1940.


I'm not sure who Giovanni's oldest child was. My Great Grandmother is the oldest I have found records for. She was born in 1869. Relatives have given Giovanni's marriage as 1862. If that is correct there may be older children. I have not seen any evidence to that effect. (Same trees, give Antonia Fuscinato for his mother)

Children"

Luigia (my GG) was born 21 May 1869, this comes from the birth extract at the time of her marrigae as well as her green card which I have.

Antonia was born in 1870 or 71, based on her marriage record and her death record in 1922 Records for 1870 are not available and there are only partial birth records for 1871 so I have no birth record for her.

Bernardino 1 born 31 Jan 1874. d. 1874, Giovanni was not the one reporting his birth so his age was not given.

Bernardino 2 born in 16 Feb 1875 d. 1875, father Giovanni di Vittore, age 36, est. birth year 1839.

Libera born in 31 May 1876, father Giovanni di Vittore, age 36, est birth year 1840

Bernardo born in 27 Oct 1879 d. 1882, father Giovanni di Vittore, age 40, est birth year 1839

Bernardina born in 16 Apr 1883, father Giovanni, age 44, est birth year 1839

So in this aspect his death record was accurate.

The only thing I can think is that perhaps the two Victors are one and the same person, married twice. This would explain the interchangable residences, the same birth year and the fact that there is just one death record, there is no overlap in the families of the two women and perhaps they just made a mistake listing Giovanni's mother as his father's second wife. It would also explain why Margherita was so much younger than her husband.

ltramposch97
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Re: Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby ltramposch97 » 22 Oct 2014, 00:23

Margherita Bee was still living when Giovanni died which could have contributed to the error

carubia
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Re: Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby carubia » 24 Oct 2014, 13:29

I think that the 2 Vittores were the same person. The only fact that doesn't fit this conclusion is the name of Giovanni's mother on his death cert, and that could easily be a mistake by the person reporting it. One more small piece of evidence is that Giovanni had a daughter Antonia but no daughter Margherita or Giacoma, but then we don't know if he had any earlier children, such as a son Vittore. Have you found his wife's death cert yet, and if so, who were her parents?

ltramposch97
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Re: Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby ltramposch97 » 26 Oct 2014, 16:04

I agree with your conclusion. The fact that Margarita was still living could be why the person reporting it concluded that she was his mother. But with a 16 year age difference between Giovanni and his next supposed sibling it doesn't make sense. Giovanni's wife was Angela Venzon of Agana di Giaroni. Her Parents were Bernardo Venzon and Marina Garbin. Bernardo's parents were Bernardo Venzon/Catterina Braus. Marina's parents were Giovanni Battista Garbin/Angela Zucco. Angela Venzon's siblings were Pasquale, Claudia, Cirillo and Catterina. Giovanni's infant sons were likley named after Angela's father. Libera's oldest son was also named Bernardo Antonio. I have been given a marriage date of 1862 for Giovanni and Angela, I have not been able to verify this. My GG Luigia was born in 1969, so there is a potential for older children, however I have not been able to find any as yet. I am cataloging all of the Lira families (both male and female lines) in the records available online for Fonzaso, and I will be going through the adjoining towns after that.

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Re: Parentage of Giovanni Lira

Postby ltramposch97 » 01 Dec 2014, 17:13

@carubia

Your conclusion was correct. I emailed the Ufficio Anagrafe who revealed that Giovanni Antonio Lira was "nato il 26-09-1839
figlio di Vittore e FUSINATO Antonia (1^ moglie di Vittore)" Thanks for helping me brainstorm


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