Are they brother and sister?

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OrangeBlossom44
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Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 13 Jan 2015, 08:52

A friend and I have always heard that we may be related. We think we know how, but can't prove it, because neither one of us at this point is good at Italian genealogy research. Can you help?

Giuseppe Silengo and Eugenia Lovisone were married in 1876 in Cossombrato, Asti. We know that they are the grandparents of of my friend. If Eugenia had a brother named Secondo Lovisone, who had children that include Marcello (my grandfather), Carolina, Gina, Agostino, Gina, etc., then my friend and I are related. The Lovisone family lived in Castell'Alfero, Asti.

I found the marriage index and marriage record for Giuseppe's and Eugenia's marriage, but I can't read it. I had hoped to find Eugenia Lovisone and Secondo Lovisone birth records by scanning birth indexes for Asti, but the earliest one I can find spans 1866-1910. Both Eugenia and Secondo would have been born around 10 or more years earlier.

My question: Where can I find birth records earlier than 1866? Do you have any other way that I can determine whether Eugenia Lovisone and Secondo Lovisone are siblings?

I have lots of experience with US genealogical research, but am lost doing Italian research. It's discouraging, because I'm Italian on both sides and don't know where to begin. I'd appreciate anything you can do to point me in the right direction. Thank you.
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 14 Jan 2015, 18:17

Some of the Silengo family information that I was given and have posted here is incorrect. I am asking the Administrator to delete this thread. Once I updated the information, I will re-post. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jan 2015, 21:53

For reference purposes... translation of the banns of marriage...

Here is the Publication of the Banns of Marriage in the groom's hometown of Cossombrato. The marriage would be taking place in the Bride's hometown.

Pubblicazione di Matrimoni
Act #4 (Parte 2)
Dated 19 February 1876 at 8 AM at the town office
The official in Cossombrato received from the official in Castelalfero a request to publish the banns of marriage of...
Signor Giuseppe Giovanni Carlo Silengo, peasant farmer born in Cossombrato and residing there, of minor age, single son of deceased Giuseppe [Silengo] and of Luigia Amerio, peasant farmers residing in Cossombrato; and
Signore Maria Eugenia Lovisone, peasant farmer born in Castell'Alfero, residing in Castell'Alfero, of minor age, single daughter of deceased Lorenzo and of deceased Margherita Dezani.
The margin notes indicate the dates that the banns were posted on the door of the town office in Cossombrato. (On 20 and 27 February, and on 2 March 1876)
NOTE: The wedding would be taking place in the home town of the bride (Castell'Alfero). That is where Maria Eugenia's birth record would be found.

Here is the link to the image. Bottom right of page, then on to next page.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238896501

There is no need to delete the post. We can help you "sort it all out." :D

EDITED TO ADD:

Here is the link to the marriage act (#6) in Castell'Alfero.
This identifies the age of the spouses...
Giuseppe was age 20
Maria Eugenia was also age 20.
As they were minors, Giuseppe's mother was present to give consent, and the family counsel was present to give consent for Maria Eugenia.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238896501

Do you have approximate years of birth for the children of Secondo Lovisone?



T.

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 16 Jan 2015, 04:43

Thank you very much for the links to the Pubblicazioni Di Matrimonio and the Atti Di Matrimonio...and the translation of the first. I had found the Atti Di Matrimonio in the Civil Registration, 1866-1910 for Castell'Alfero, but didn't know its significance.

I know the names of several of the children of Secondo Lovisone (my great grandfather), but I only know the birthdate of just one (my grandfather, Marcello Ernesto Lovisone). Here they are.

MY GRANDFATHER -

Marcello Ernesto Lovisone - born 17 March 1885 in Castell'Alfero. His father was Secondo Lovisone. His mother, I believe, was Francesca Fassio.

MY GRANDFATHER'S SIBLINGS -

(1) Carolina Lovisone, who I believe never married, but had one child, a girl who I think was named Gina.

(2) Gina, married but no children.

(3) Maria, marital status unknown, but had one child.

(4) Candida, married, but unsure whether she had any children

(5) Augusto (Agostino??), married with one or two children.

Thank you for your help. Please let me know if you need additional information.

(FYI, my original question had just one error. I stated that my friend and I might be related through our grandparents. That is wrong; we would be related through our great grandparents.)
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby PippoM » 16 Jan 2015, 08:56

Here are Secondo's marriage banns:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238900101

He was the son of Lorenzo and Margherita Dezani, both deceased.
So, you and your friend are related :-)
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

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OrangeBlossom44
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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 16 Jan 2015, 09:52

Wow! That's incredible! I am thrilled! My friend Mary and I have wondered about this for many years.

I can't thank you both enough. Tessa and Pippo, I am so very happy. I appreciate all you both have done.

Now, I'm going to print out and organize all the documentation that traces back to our common ancestors and learn about the area going back in time. Then, I plan to do some additional research on my maternal grandmother Clara Cantino's lineage. She was born in nearby Frinco.

Again, thank you so much! It is very nice to know that my roots don't end at Ellis Island.
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby paola52 » 16 Jan 2015, 12:50

Did Clara Cantino immigrate in 1907 going to brother Vincenzo?
If so this is her birth recor
Cantino Clara Elvira
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238849601
born in Trinco 8 Ago 1879, daughter of Francesco and Antonia Goja
Ciao
Paola :D
Researching Provinces of Varese, Como and Milan

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby Tessa78 » 16 Jan 2015, 15:24

OrangeBlossom44 wrote:Thank you very much for the links to the Pubblicazioni Di Matrimonio and the Atti Di Matrimonio...and the translation of the first. I had found the Atti Di Matrimonio in the Civil Registration, 1866-1910 for Castell'Alfero, but didn't know its significance.

I know the names of several of the children of Secondo Lovisone (my great grandfather), but I only know the birthdate of just one (my grandfather, Marcello Ernesto Lovisone). Here they are.

MY GRANDFATHER -

Marcello Ernesto Lovisone - born 17 March 1885 in Castell'Alfero. His father was Secondo Lovisone. His mother, I believe, was Francesca Fassio.




Birth Record of Marcello Ernesto Lovisone... :D
#28
Dated 14 March, born on 11 March 1885
Father: Secondo, age 37, peasant farmer
Mother: Francesca Fassio, daughter of deceased Giussepe, age 32, peasant farmer and wife of Secondo.
Child given the name MARCELLO ERNESTO
The father did not present the child at the town office to the official because the birth was a long distance from the town. The place of birth is identified as "regione Lovisone."

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238856301

Birth Act of Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone in 1892 in Castell'Alfero
Father: Secondo Lovisone, 44 yo peasant farmer
Mother: Francesca Fassio, 38, daughter of deceased Giuseppe, wife of Secondo
Child named Lorenzo Agostino, born n 9 August 1892

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238902401

Notation... Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone marriage in Torino to ??? Desio, Act #486, Parte II, 1925
Notation... death in Torino in 1971 Act #22 Parte II

Birth Act of Candida Lovisone in 1882
Act #98
Birth on 10 December 1882, recorded on 12 December
Father: Secondo, age 34, peasant farmer
Mother: Francesca Fassio, daughter of deceased Giuseppe, age 29, peasant farmer and wife of Secondo
Child given the name CANDIDA
Notations in margin: (a bit hard to read accurately)
~ Marriage to Giuseppe Cissello in Torino on 18 February 1905, act #140
~Marriage on 23 February 1892 with ??? Act #242
~Marriage on 10 September 1927 with Carlo ??? in Torino
~Death of Candida Lovisone in Torino 9 April 1966, Act #1046

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238853301

T.

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 16 Jan 2015, 17:01

Paolo52 -

Yes, indeed, you are right. I have a paper record of grandma Clara's immigration. She came to Ellis Island in March of 1907 on La Gascogna out of Havre, France, to join her brother Vincenzo in New Haven, Connecticut, the area where her family settled. Grandma Clara died here about 2.5 years before I was born. I do, however, have several pictures of her and have heard about her. Growing up, I lived just two houses away from her husband, my grandfather, Marcello.

I am surprised to see that my grandmother's middle name is Elvira. It seems that my family has always used a variety of names. I've heard my late mother and her brothers refer to her as Clara, Vino, Vina, Selvina, and Seldina...but never Elvira. The same with the names used on formal documents. That's amazing! Thank you so much! You are very kind.
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 16 Jan 2015, 17:40

Tessa78 -

Thank you very much for the information and links to my grandfather, great aunt and great uncle. I particularly appreciate the translation. I was once fluent in French and knew a little Italian (mom and dad spoke different dialects, so they never spoke it at home), but I have lost a lot of my language ability. I had located Marcello's Birth Act, but not the others.

Once again, I am surprised about the use of middle names as the primary name, as in the case of Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone, who I knew only as Agostino. It looks like he was named for his maternal grandfather (Lorenzo Lovisone). I am told that, in Italian naming tradition, the eldest son is usually named after that baby's paternal grandfather...and that the second son is named after that baby's maternal grandfather. If that is true, then Lorenzo Agostino was named after Eugenia's father Lorenzo, and Secondo's father most likely would be someone named Marcello. That should help in my search.

I was able to visit Italy just one time when I was around 20 years old. Sadly, it was a couple years after Candida died, but I was able to meet my great uncle Agostino and his sisters (my great aunts) Gina and Carolina, several of their children (including Carolina's daughter Alida and possibly a sister - though my notes are conflicting on this - whose name I do not recall) and their kids as well. As I recall, Gina, Carolina, Alida lived in Biella. I stayed with them for a short while, and they took me to the countryside. I just wish that at the time I was smart enough to gather the genealogical information I have been seeking these past few decades. It would have been so much easier and more meaningful. But, I feel truly blessed to be part of such a wonderful family.

Again, thank you for helping me. I will review my documents and records and try searching some on my own to see if I can make progress. If I have further questions, I will post them here. I really do appreciate your kindness in helping me find my family.

QUESTION: Most online records appear to go back to only 1866. How do you find documentation of events that took place before that?

Thank you again.
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 16 Jan 2015, 19:16

PippoM -

In the marriage banns that you posted above for the marriage of Secondo Lovisone and Francesca Fassio, I see that Giuseppe Fassio was her deceased father, but I cannot read the full name of her living mother. I can see the word "Maria," but I can't make out all of Maria's last name. Maria's last name looks like it ends with "usetta". Can you read the first few letters of her last name?

Thanks very much.
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby Tessa78 » 16 Jan 2015, 20:55

OrangeBlossom44 wrote:PippoM -

In the marriage banns that you posted above for the marriage of Secondo Lovisone and Francesca Fassio, I see that Giuseppe Fassio was her deceased father, but I cannot read the full name of her living mother. I can see the word "Maria," but I can't make out all of Maria's last name. Maria's last name looks like it ends with "usetta". Can you read the first few letters of her last name?

Thanks very much.


I read it as MUSSETTO :D

Edit to add:
Here is the link to the Marriage Act of the above banns posted by Pippo :D

Mother of Francesca Fassio is clearer.... definitely Mussetto :-)

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238900101


ALSO...
You wrote:

Once again, I am surprised about the use of middle names as the primary name, as in the case of Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone, who I knew only as Agostino. It looks like he was named for his maternal grandfather (Lorenzo Lovisone). I am told that, in Italian naming tradition, the eldest son is usually named after that baby's paternal grandfather...and that the second son is named after that baby's maternal grandfather. If that is true, then Lorenzo Agostino was named after Eugenia's father Lorenzo, and Secondo's father most likely would be someone named Marcello. That should help in my search.


Some clarification here...
Lorenzo Agostino was the son of Secondo, who was the son of LORENZO. So, he WAS named for his PATERNAL grandfather. Lorenzo Agosotino's maternal grandfather was Giuseppe Fassio.
Also, Maria Eugenia Lovisone and Secondo Lovisone were siblings and had the same parents - Lorenzo Lovisone and Margherita Dezani (see above posts) :D

T.

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 17 Jan 2015, 18:14

Tessa -

Thank you for the clarification. I remember that my grandfather Marcello Ernesto Lovisone always referred to his brother Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone as "Augusto" or "Agostino," never "Lorenzo". I wonder if Agostino used his middle name rather than his first name Lorenzo in everyday life so as not to be confused with his grandfather who had the same name.

Thank you too for deciphering the name Musetto.

QUESTION: Most online records appear to go back to only 1866. How do you find documentation of events that took place before that?
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby Tessa78 » 17 Jan 2015, 19:36

OrangeBlossom44 wrote:Tessa -

Thank you for the clarification. I remember that my grandfather Marcello Ernesto Lovisone always referred to his brother Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone as "Augusto" or "Agostino," never "Lorenzo". I wonder if Agostino used his middle name rather than his first name Lorenzo in everyday life so as not to be confused with his grandfather who had the same name.

Thank you too for deciphering the name Musetto.

QUESTION: Most online records appear to go back to only 1866. How do you find documentation of events that took place before that?


It MAY be that Lorenzo Agostino was called by his second name because he was the second LORENZO born to Secondo and Francesca Lovisone.

Here is the birth of their FIRST son, Lorenzo Gabriele Lovisone, who then died at age 1 year, 7 months.
Birth Act of the FIRST Lorenzo born to Secondo and Francesca
Act #84
Dated 26 October 1878 (the year after their marriage)
Father: Secondo Lovisone, age 30, peasant farmer
Mother: Francesca Fassio, 25, peasant farmer, his wife residing with him
Child given the name LORENZO GABRIELE was born on 25 October.

NOTE: The father of Francesca Fassio on the above birth act is listed as Morizio, but I believe that is in error. While searching I came across a Agostino Lovisone (birth about 1848 - possibly a brother of Secondo?) and Candida Fassio (his wife) declaring the birth of their son Federico Lovisone. Candida's father is Morizio.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238848701

DEATH of Lorenzo Gabriele Lovisone
Act #22
Dated 15 May 1880
Child of 1 year and 7 months... Lorenzo Lovisone died
Father: Secondo Lovisone, age 32, farmer
Mother: Francesca Fassio, farmer

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,238905601

T.

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Re: Are they brother and sister?

Postby OrangeBlossom44 » 20 Jan 2015, 23:52

Tessa -

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Thank you so much for the additional information and insight into why my great uncle Lorenzo Agostino Lovisone was known to the family as simply Agostino. Your theory makes a lot of sense. I did some additional searching and found a few more siblings of my grandfather Marcello Ernesto Lovisone.

Once I document all that is here on this thread, I will post more questions. I hope you will continue to help me. I really appreciate all you have done. Bless you.

Clara "Claire"
Researching Asti, Biella, Torino, Benevento. Surnames: Biondi, Lovisone, Cantino, Gioa, Lavorgna, Fassio, Dezani, Mussetto, Negro, Gaspardone, Giannotti, SanGiovanni, Porto, Fiurentino.

Clara "Claire"


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