lack of marginal notes on birth records

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mezzogiorno62
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lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jan 2015, 02:29

i'm trying to find possible marriage and death information for francesco landino.he was born in palermo in 1851.i have a copy of the original record.his wife,or possibly common law wife,was maria bonarrigo,born in gualtieri sicamino,messina in 1847.i also have that birth record.they possibly lived common law in barcellona pg messina,where they had 3 natural children,born in 1872,1877,and 1880.on the 1872 birth(salvatore)maria is noted as wife.on the 1877birth(rosalia)the couple is noted as unmarried.and in the 1880 birth(mattia)francesco is noted as the husband of maria but his whereabouts are unknown.i have all 3 birth records.but i can't find marriage information in barcellona pg,gualtieri,or palermo.nor can i find death information for francesco(maria died in boston in 1902 unaccompanied by francesco,who most likely died in sicily).as there are no marginal notes on either francesco or maria's birth records noting a marriage for this couple,or the death of francesco,are there any other options that might reveal this information?any help would be most appreciated.

Anizio
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby Anizio » 19 Jan 2015, 18:26

If they got married after the birth of their children and you indicate, you would want to check
1. their marriages (children) and the allegati
2. allegati to their birth documents

The allegati of the children's marriages should include, in the allegati (attachments) a note of when they became legitimized (ie. when their parents got married).
Further this may also be noted on the children's birth documents, but its not guaranteed.

Far as I see, these are your best bets for finding the marriage date.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

mezzogiorno62
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jan 2015, 20:11

already did that.there are no notations on the birth records of the children either.and i have no idea when/where they married.the oldest,salvatore,born in 1872,came to america in 1893,and his first son was born in 1895.but i checked new york marriages for that time period with no results.the other 2 daughters,rosalia and mattia,born in 1877 and 1880,i have no idea when or if they married.as i said,this couple may never have married,possibly due to the fact the groom was barely 20 at the time of his son's birth in 1872 and couldnt get permission to do so.if they married,it would have been in barcellona pg and there probably would have been a notation to that on both,or at least one,of their birth records.i've seen notations on many birth records noting marriage or death information.not on these.

Anizio
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby Anizio » 19 Jan 2015, 20:12

You misunderstand. The notations on the birth record are not the same thing as the allegati, they are separate documents.

If you have no idea of anything, get an idea. There is no miracle, the options I listed are your best and likely only bets.
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

mezzogiorno62
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 19 Jan 2015, 20:16

where would"allegati"be found if not on the birth record itself? also,not every comune had allegati.as i said,i've seen many birth records that noted when the marriage or death of the subject occurred.not here.i scoured the marriage records in barcellona pg right up to the early 1900s,by which time a woman born ca.1877-1880 would most likely have married,but found nothing.also checked deaths as well,with no results.been working this for 15 years and i'm pretty familiar with the ins and outs of italian genealogy.thats why i'm putting out feelers for some options i may have missed or overlooked.not likely but possible.

erudita74
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby erudita74 » 21 Jan 2015, 13:53

Have you tried tracking down Church marriage records? There were some who never had a civil marriage, even after the unification of Italy and who, as a result, were not considered married in the eyes of the civil law?

Erudita

mezzogiorno62
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Jan 2015, 14:10

did that.nothing found in barcellona.i never come to the forum with questions until i've exhausted all options.contacted both the parish of s.sebastiano in barcellona as well as the diocese of messina.i'm beginning to believe they never married as generally some notation alluding to a marriage would have been found on one or both of the couples birth records.especially hers.plus,all 3 births that i found for their children give different marital status for the parents.in the birth of son salvatore theyre married,in the birth of daughter rosalia theyre unmarried"non conjugale",and in the last birth of daughter mattia theyre married.no consistency.thats why i was looking for some other possible source besides marginal notes.and there are no allegati records in barcellona-at least they weren't filmed by lds.theres not much i havent done in learning the ins and outs of searching for records in italy in nearly 20 years-parish or civil.i'm ingenious and i'll try anything beyond the standard how to options.but i'm at my wits end here.

erudita74
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby erudita74 » 21 Jan 2015, 14:50

You say you contacted the diocese in Messina, but the individual parishes were not required to send copies of their records to the dioceses until 1917 and more recently. So, in the 1800s, it was up to the individual parish whether it filed a copy of a marriage that took place in its parish with the diocese and many parishes did not.

Also I read something recently that I found quite disturbing, but don't recall offhand where in Italy or Sicily this was. A priest refused to marry a couple who was poor and could not make a monetary, or some other donation, to the parish. This was sometime in the 1800s. So, at first, the couple continued to have children, but weren't married. Then they finally went from town to town until they found a priest willing to marry them. So check parishes in towns other than the ancestral ones. It's time consuming, but you seem to have exhausted all other avenues.

Also, post the unification of Italy, I don't recall seeing civil records with annotations concerning a church marriage. So I wouldn't expect to find an annotation for a church marriage on a civil birth record from the 1870s. Also I have many civil records from that time period which simply do not have any annotations on them concerning marriage or death.

Sorry I can't be more helpful on this.

Erudita

mezzogiorno62
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Re: lack of marginal notes on birth records

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 21 Jan 2015, 16:32

i checked several parishes in surrounding comuni as well.nothing.if a couple married in the church but not civilly,the marriage would be considered void-but not the other way around.overall i find civil records of acts to be much more thorough than parish records.parish records only work if one has to go back to pre civil records times(1809 in mainland italy and 1820 in sicily)and then you need to know the exact parish which can be problematic when there are several parishes or more,say in a large city.and who is going to know which parish an ancestor was baptized or married in 200 years ago?also parish records contain a bare amount of information compared to civil records.i have an 1803 marriage record from a parish that doesnt even give the names of the couples parents.that wouldnt happen in civil records.these people who claim theyve had great success with parish records must be in the minority.i never have.i've found a number of birth records in my research(mainly the provinces of avellino in southern italy,my grandfathers region,and in messina sicily,my grandmothers region)and found notations on birth records containing marriage and death notations.and this is after 1870.unfortunately this isnt the case in my search for information in this case.bottom line-dont expect much from the parishes.if your research cant be completed using the civil records your chances are slim of going further with the parishes.its all about money or if they have the manpower or interest to respond to your inquiries.


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