Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

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sisINlaw58
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Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 12 Apr 2015, 16:08

I have an ancestor crossed off a Passenger List (meaning he did not show up or go on ship)to New York, USA. Somehow he went to SOUTH America (family rumor of Argentina). Giuseppe Mongiovi/Mongiuve from Mussomelli, Chieti, Sicily/Italia was born approximately 1870-1880 and left via ship from Italy between 1900-1921 but to South America. Parents: Salvatore and Anna Mongiovi (her maiden name: Lombardo). How can I find him leaving Italy to Argentina?? Town in Argentina unknown. Family in USA never spoke with him again sadly. Buenos Aires does not have record of him. Thanks! Signed: sisINlaw58

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby Robin B Mc » 12 Apr 2015, 18:03

sisINlaw58 wrote:I have an ancestor crossed off a Passenger List (meaning he did not show up or go on ship)to New York, USA.


That is not normally what it means when one is crossed off a passenger list. When someone is crossed off, it generally means they boarded the ship but did not get off the ship at that port of arrival. This could be because they died while on ship, or because they weren't disembarking at that port. Sometimes, ships would go to more than one port and sometimes, passengers would remain on the ship until the next destination. The passenger lists we see are usually copies that were made at the port of arrival from the ship's records. Arriving at the first port of call, if a passenger did not get off the ship, they were crossed off on the copy made by the port of call - but they may have disembarked at a secondary port of call where a secondary passenger list was copied and this time, they were not crossed off.

This happened to my ancestors who were on board a ship that arrived in NY first - on this passenger list they were crossed off because they stayed on board. A few days later, the ship went to Philadelphia where they disembarked and on this second passenger list, they were not crossed off. It does not mean they never got on the ship to begin with, nor does it necessarily mean they never got off the ship.

Generally, the ship's original passenger list was compiled from the names of people who boarded the ship - so if the name is on there, it suggests he did board that ship, but he didn't disembark at NY. It wasn't like today where tickets are purchased in someone's name and only that person can use that ticket. A person compiling the passenger list would have no idea who purchased a ticket or intended to board so the list of names could only come from the people who DID get on the ship.

Somehow he went to SOUTH America (family rumor of Argentina). Giuseppe Mongiovi/Mongiuve from Mussomelli, Chieti, Sicily/Italia was born approximately 1870-1880 and left via ship from Italy between 1900-1921 but to South America. Parents: Salvatore and Anna Mongiovi (her maiden name: Lombardo). How can I find him leaving Italy to Argentina?? Town in Argentina unknown. Family in USA never spoke with him again sadly. Buenos Aires does not have record of him. Thanks! Signed: sisINlaw58


It's possible he boarded a ship that first went to NY and then to South America. It's possible it was his intention to go to South American all along. Try researching the ship that arrived in NY on which his name was crossed off - maybe it carried on to South America, or at least to some other port of call where he might have gotten off and then carried onto South America.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 12 Apr 2015, 20:51

Robin -
Thanks so much! I had read somewhere the crossed off names meant they never boarded as tickets were purchased ahead of time. I will try to track the destination (s) of that particular ship. I appreciate your quick and informative response! sisINlaw58

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby carubia » 13 Apr 2015, 03:47

Robin,
Names that are crossed off often are missing a lot of information, such as the name of the person in the US with whom they will be staying or a person they are leaving behind, as well as info such as whether the person had been in the US before. Why would the entries be so incomplete if the person had boarded? Was this info collected only at disembarkation?

I've seen cases where a person was crossed off but then appeared on a different manifest a few months later. There was one cousin who was crossed off 7 manifests over a period of over a year before she finally was on a manifest where she wasn't crossed off. It's hard to reconcile that with your explanation.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby carubia » 13 Apr 2015, 03:53

BTW, Mussomeli is not in Chieti (which is nowhere near Sicily) but in Caltanissetta. The surname Mongiovi is found a little in Caltanissetta, but it's much more common in Agrigento.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 13 Apr 2015, 03:57

Yes, my bad. I am tracing Italian specific ancestors as well as Siclian ancestors at the same time! Mussomelli, Caltanisetta, Sicily is my "current" headache! Thanks! Wondering if my ancestor tried to communicate with his mother and she rejected his letters??

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby carubia » 13 Apr 2015, 05:39

Robin B Mc wrote:It wasn't like today where tickets are purchased in someone's name and only that person can use that ticket.
You may be right for that time period - I don't know - but I have my GGF's wife's trans-Atlantic ticket from the late 1930s, which does have her name on it and also stuff about some sort of medical inspection that was required. It doesn't seem that just anyone could've used it.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 13 Apr 2015, 07:07

Such a puzzle! Thanks for your input Robin and Carubia. I sincerely appreciate it. I don't know how to look for the ship manifest of various destinations though. Any thoughts on that? Any links you are aware of? I found just a history of a ship (company and country where it was built and last year of service).

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby carubia » 13 Apr 2015, 11:45

You're tracing both Italian and Sicilian ancestors?! :P

Seriously, it doesn't sound like it would be that hard to find Giuseppe's birth record from Mussomeli. Can you narrow down the year of birth range a little? From where did you derive that range? How old was he on the manifest you do have?

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby carubia » 13 Apr 2015, 12:43

I searched all the birth indexes for Mussomeli from 1870 to 1880. There were only 3 children born with surname Mongiovi: a Vincenza in 1870, a Salvadore in 1873, and a stillbirth in 1877. All 3 of them had the same parents: Giuseppe Mongiovi (of Raffaele) and Cecilia Vullo (of Salvadore).

Can you check again what information you have on your Giuseppe's possible years of birth? Do you have any information about any of Giuseppe or his father Salvatore's siblings? Lombardo is a common enough name in Mussomeli, but as I said earlier, Mongiovi is not, so Salvatore or his father may have been from somewhere else further west.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 13 Apr 2015, 16:30

Carubia,
Thanks so much! I was leaning towards Agrigento but the one person still alive in the family 100% refuses to accept Agrigento! I cannot explain sufficiently that Agrigento is in Province of Caltanisetta to her. I have written a letter to Mussomeli asking for birth record and marriage record for Salvatore and wife Anna Lombardo but that, if I get a reply, will take weeks/months I imagine. BTW "my" Salvatore (the father to Giuseppe) was born 11 November 1873 and wife Anna Lombardo "about" 1875. One child, Vincenza was definitely born in Mussomeli 17 August 1897. I believe Giuseppe is older. I cannot decipher age on manifest for him. So, it may not be "my" Giuseppe after all. I saved the record because his destination was the same town in New Jersey his mother and sister went to and family stayed there and prospered. He is listed as coming from Mussomeli as did his mother and sister. Perhaps I should re-check Agrigento and ignore the elderly relative's memory! Thank you again! sisINlaw58

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby liviomoreno » 13 Apr 2015, 16:46

sisINlaw58 wrote:... I cannot explain sufficiently that Agrigento is in Province of Caltanisetta to her ...


Agrigento is NOT i Province of Caltanisetta. Agrigento is one of the 9 Provinces of Sicily:

Agrigento
Caltanissetta
Catania
Enna
Messina
Palermo
Ragusa
Siracusa
Trapani

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 13 Apr 2015, 16:56

Oh, my... Thank you Livio! I am revisiting familysearch.org for records from the Provinces today/now.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby carubia » 13 Apr 2015, 18:13

sisINlaw58 wrote:BTW "my" Salvatore (the father to Giuseppe) was born 11 November 1873 and wife Anna Lombardo "about" 1875.
If Giuseppe's father was born in 1873, how could Giuseppe have been born between 1870 and 1880?!

I found the birth record for a Salvadore Mongiovi with father Giuseppe in Mussomeli from Nov 1873! It sounds like that's your Salvatore, and your Giuseppe is his (probably 1st-born) son, who could've been older than Vincenza born in 1897, who herself may have been named after Salvatore's sister, born in 1870.

If Salvatore was born in 1873 then you need to look after 1890 for Giuseppe's birth.

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Re: Ancester went to SOUTH America by mistake

Postby sisINlaw58 » 13 Apr 2015, 18:23

Carubia,
Yes. My error in judgement/thought....Giuseppe has to be younger than sister Vincenza (born 1873 to Salvatore & Anna). Marty found Giuseppe born in 1900 so it all fits now!
Grazie to you Carubia as well as to Marty!
the phrase "born in a house via San Domenico" --- does this mean San Domenico is the name of the street?


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