re:atto di nascita protocol

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mezzogiorno62
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re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 01 May 2015, 13:41

question:as was customary,when the father presented the child to the civil records office to register the birth,and stated that he was married,did he need to verify this with a marriage record,or was his word simply taken? as the child's "legitimacy" depended on the parents being married,i would think proof of marriage would be required.i have a situation where,in the birth of the first child,a son,the father declares he is married to the mother-but in the birth of the second child,a daughter,he declares "non coniugale" or not married.doesn't make much sense but the customs of the times(late 1800s)were a bit confusing and irregular.i've been at this for nearly 20 years and still learning.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby Italysearcher » 02 May 2015, 15:50

Usually the town had the kind of records (or they simply knew everyone's situation) that proof was not required. Perhaps in the first instance the clerk 'knew' he was living with the mother, and in the second case (a different clerk) they knew he wasn't civilly married. When people are illiterate, a declaration is often the decision of the clerk and the wording is standard.
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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby carubia » 02 May 2015, 16:52

Unlike the case with marriages, when a birth or death was registered, no supporting documentation, such as a birth or marriage record, was submitted. That's one reason why marriage acts are generally much more accurate.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 02 May 2015, 20:12

the father was 20 years old and from palermo-nowhere near barcellona messina where the children's births occurred.the mother was 23 and from a small town near barcellona.in the first birth record,a son, she's noted as his wife.in the second birth record,a daughter, the couple is noted as non coniugale,or not married.at the birth of a third child and second daughter,the child is presented by a wetnurse and the fathers whereabouts are noted as unknown.3 births and 3 different status situations.my guess is that they never formally married.only lived commonlaw.its possible they married in a church ceremony and not civilly,but i don't see the logic in that.although he was young,i doubt 20 was an obstacle to a civil marriage in the case of the father.the mother was a bit older.i'm currently waiting for a response from the main parish regarding a possible marriage there,as there is no civil marriage record found for them in this comune.nor any marriage in palermo or gualtieri sicamino,the mothers comune.i always thought some documentation was required to marry-like processetti or allegati.otherwise anyone could apply to marry with no verification.and this could impact the birth of any children born of the union,as their marriage status would determine legitimacy-or illegitimacy.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby carubia » 02 May 2015, 20:23

I've seen cases where the marital status varied with each birth. It seems that this was more likely to occur if the couple was from somewhere else, so that no one in the new town knew.

For example, recently I saw a case where a couple from Montallegro had some kids in Ribera, alternating births back and forth between the 2 towns. For the Ribera births the father is listed as known and the mother is his wife. For their children in Montallegro the father is unknown and the mother is single. Later when the children grew up they started using the father's surname.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby carubia » 02 May 2015, 20:27

mezzogiorno62 wrote:i always thought some documentation was required to marry-like processetti or allegati.otherwise anyone could apply to marry with no verification.and this could impact the birth of any children born of the union,as their marriage status would determine legitimacy-or illegitimacy.
I don't see the relevance of this observation to this situation. As I pointed out, documentation was required to marry, but not to report births, which is what was happening here.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 02 May 2015, 20:33

although the original birth,marriage,and death records of an individual are all we have to go on-i find nothing is certain in any of these records.everything is questionable-especially ages..in birth records the marital status of the parents as well as their given ages can be iffy.in the marriage records the ages of the subjects is often iffy.and in the death records the ages of the deceased is more often than not iffy.the only certainty in birth,marriage,and death records is the dates they occurred.everything else is whatever information is given by the subjects and the registrar simply records that information for the record.the bottom line is theres no way to determine the marital status of the parents in a birth record as no proof was required of marriage at the birth.and in this case,its most likely they never married as in the second birth non coniugale is stated(not married).its possible they married later but highly unlikely as i found nothing in the marriage records of barcellona years afterwards.also,as they had already been together at least 5 years by the time of their second childs birth,and were non coniugale,its not likely they were going to get married at this point.for whatever reason they were either unable to marry or decided not to marry-although it doesnt appear either subject was previously married considering their ages.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby carubia » 03 May 2015, 08:08

Don't jump to conclusions. I've seen 19th-c. Italian couples wait more than a decade to marry after the birth of their first child. And a woman who was 23 years old could certainly be a widow.

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Re: re:atto di nascita protocol

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 03 May 2015, 13:45

this couple,francesco landino and maria bonarrigo, had their 1st child,salvatore, in 1872.their second,rosalia, in 1877.and their third,mattia, in 1880.all born in barcellona messina.could have been others but i doubt it as i consulted the original records(lds films).francesco left in 1889 for america(new york)and died upoon arrival-possibly intending to send for his family? maria stayed in barcellona until 1902 and immigrated to boston.she also died shortly after arriving(coming to live with son salvatore).she was accompanied by my paternal grandmother,maria costante,her adoptive daughter(she was my grandmothers wetnurse and adoptive mother) but i found no marriage records,at least in the civil registers.i started in 1866,allowing for a 15 year old husband,and went right up to 1889,when he left sicily.nothing.i did the same in her native comune of gualtieri sicamino in messina and his native comune of palermo(the complete marriage indexes for palermo 1820-1895 are available online).nothing.so i would say they never married with nearly 100% certainty-unless they married in a church ceremony not recognized by the state.


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