re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

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mezzogiorno62
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re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 25 May 2015, 22:48

i'm trying to find a marriage which i'm 99% certain occurred in palermo ca.1870-1873.the subjects were antonino caldara and agostina landino.i checked every possible variation of those surnames in the palermo marriage index 1820-1895.nothing.they left palermo for new york in 1874 according to the passenger record.antonino was 26 and agostina was 20.at first i thought they may have married in new york,but it had to be in palermo as their 1st child,age 7,according to the 1880 us census,was born in italy.so considering the ages of the couple,it would appear they married between 1870 and 1873.any sugestions as to why this marriage isnt found in the palermo marriage indexes wouold be most appreciated.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby carubia » 26 May 2015, 12:55

I can think of lots of possibilities:
1. They married in another town, perhaps in Palermo province.
2. They never actually legally married.
3. The record is in the collection but was left out of the index.
4. The names are so badly mangled in the index and/or record you don't recognize them.
5. They married before 1870 (when Agostina was 16).
6. The US census was wrong about their first child's place of birth and/or age.
7. They married in 1874 just before they got on the ship.
8. They're in the index but somehow you missed them.

Have you tried searching through the marriage banns? Have you looked for that child's birth record? Was he also listed on that passenger manifest traveling with his parents?

Can you attach a link to the passenger manifest and census record? Have you found Agostina and Antonino's birth records?

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 26 May 2015, 13:55

according to the 1880 census the oldest child was born in italy(sicily).they came to the u.s.a. new york in july 1874.antonino was 26 and agostina 19.he was born in palermo in 1848 and agostina was also born in palermo in 1854.no idea how to send a link.i would if i could.but i checked the marriage indexes thoroughly several times and found nothing.if married in the time period 1870-1874 it would have showed up in the indexes which are broken up in sections.i doubt i missed them as i searched many times using every possible variation of the names caldara and landino-but it could be one of the other possibilities i guess.the child wasnt listed on the passenger record.its possible they married in new york right after arrival as they had a child,a son i believe,born in 1875 or 1876 there,according to the 1880 census.but as theres no centralized database in the new york diocese for which parish they might have married in,theres no way to locate the exact church.i would say they were married-just a question of where.palermo or new york.

carubia
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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby carubia » 26 May 2015, 14:42

It would be unusual for both of them to have left their 1-year-old child at home while they traveled to the US. If they did, who brought him over? It seems that the census could've been wrong and he was born in the US (but then, usually you see the opposite trend, where children born overseas were claimed on the census to have been born in the US; however, this was usually in the 20th-c.). Have you found them on any other census records? What other records do you have on this child?

Have you located their actual births records or are you only going on when they were born from other records? Have you tried searching in Palermo for that child's birth record? I guess you didn't search the marriage banns (or the actual marriage records) yet either. I know there are an awful lot since this is the largest city in Sicily.

I'd try checking a few years before 1870, too. Certainly girls married at 15 then, and I've seen age 14 in the 1870s, even though this was supposedly illegal.

It's very easy to attach a link: Just open the webpage, select the URL in the bar at the top of the page, and copy and paste it into your post. Like this:

http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/italian-genealogy

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Tessa78
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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby Tessa78 » 26 May 2015, 14:53

According to the 1880 US Census here....
Residing at 12th St. NYC

Antonino and August (Agostina?) were both born in Italy.
HOWEVER, children Frank (4), and Katie (7 months), were born in New York City.

Are you saying there was another child?

Image

ON the arrival manifest for 1874 -

Agostina Landino (age 19) is listed on the line below Salve Landino (age 24)
Antonino Caldara is listed a few lines further down.

Unfortunately, the manifest does not indicate marital status...

Name: Antonino Caldara
Arrival Date: 2 Jul 1874
Birth Date: abt 1844
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Place of Origin: Italy;Sicily
Port of Departure: Gibraltar
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Assyria

Image

The family again in 1892...
All 5 children listed as born in US

Image

T.

carubia
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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby carubia » 26 May 2015, 16:09

You have seen Agostina Lannino's birth record from 1 Apr 1854, right? Parents Salvatore & Rosalia Mancuso. S.O. v. 710, n. 303. She also had a sister Rosalia Lannino born 1 Oct 1847, sister Rosalia Landino born 27 Aug 1848, and possibly brother Francesco Landino born 12 Oct 1851 (w/ mother as Rosa Mancuso). I say possibly because there was another couple, Francesco Landino and Rosa Mancuso, having children at that time.

https://72e01f85-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.goo ... edirects=0

You could write to Palermo and ask if they have her marriage record.

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Tessa78
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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby Tessa78 » 26 May 2015, 16:18

Coroner's report from death of Agostina's father, Salvatore Landino in 1884.

Agostina Caldara signed as daughter of Salvatore Landino


Image

Death of Augusta/Agostina Caldara in 1893 ?
Name: Augusta Caldara
[Agostina Caldara]
Birth Year: abt 1854
Age: 39
Death Date: 8 May 1893
Death Place: Town of Jamaica, New York, USA
Certificate Number: 2806

T.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 26 May 2015, 16:25

thanks tessa.i have that record already.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby carubia » 26 May 2015, 16:29

And similarly you've found Antonino Caldara's birth record from 14 Jun 1848, with parents Francesco and Caterina Romeo, right? (He also had a younger brother Antonio and 2 sisters Giovanna. Maybe aunt and uncle Antonino Caldara and Sebastiana Romeo as well.) You could try writing Palermo for his marriage record, too.

Is there any particular info on the marriage record that you're looking for?

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Tessa78
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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby Tessa78 » 26 May 2015, 16:34

mezzogiorno62 wrote:thanks tessa.i have that record already.


You are welcome...

Have you looked at my earlier post? The children of Antonino Caldara and Agostina Landino appear to have been born in US...

I do not believe that they were married before arriving in US. On the manifest it looks like Agostina is traveling with her brother Salvatore (Salve on the the manifest) Landino (age 24 - which puts his birth about 1850).

If you must "narrow down" churches to search, look for those that were a short distance from their place of residence on the 1880 US Census.

T.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 26 May 2015, 17:26

salve(salvatore)was her brother,as was francesco(who did not arrive with them),who was my paternal grandmother's adoptive father.whats confusing is mention of a child born in italy(sicily),as that would have made them married in palermo.if the children were all born in new york,the marriage was there,probably shortly after arrival,in 1874 or 1875.way too many parishes(catholic)even then to try and locate a marriage record there.its odd that the new york diocese wouldnt have those early marriages indexed.like trying to find a needle in a haystack.i have all the birth information for antonino and agostina,as well as their deaths(agostina in 1893 and antonino in 1918)but its the marriage thats the mystery.and marriages are usually the easiest records to find.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby Tessa78 » 26 May 2015, 18:59

According to the 1880 US Census, Antonino and Agostina Caldara were residing at 423 E. 12th St. in NYC

At the time there was a catholic church located about 2-3 blocks away on 12th St. It was the old St. Ann's Church at 110 E. 12th St. Certainly within walking distance of their residence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Ann%27 ... nhattan%29

Since there have been many closings and consolidations of churches in NYC since that time, I believe that you might find that the Church of Mary Help of Christians (which was established in 1908 as an Italian immigrant church) at 440 E 12th St., has possession of the records of St. Ann's. It would be easy to give them a call and ask about the records for the church that was only 4 blocks away. You may get lucky.

Here is the contact information for Mary Help of Christians Church.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/mary-help-of-ch ... h-new-york

T.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 26 May 2015, 19:53

thanks.just tried the number listed at this church.its out of service.no email address either.i called the archdiocese of new york,who told me both parishes are closed,and that the immaculate conception church at 414 e.14th street might have those records.i called that parish(212-254-0200)and was told to call back or send in a written reuest,and that they would check for the records to see if they were there.we'll see.hopefully they are.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby mezzogiorno62 » 26 May 2015, 23:22

nothing found in the records of immaculate conception church,which would have the records of the parishes you mentioned.another dead end.

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Re: re:palermo marriage 1870-1873

Postby Tessa78 » 28 May 2015, 16:36

The records you are requesting are often "buried" somewhere in storage. It would take time to find them. The offer of a donation to the parish when making such a request is somewhat customary.

I am surprised that they were able to search the records so quickly.

T.


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