My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

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My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 15 Aug 2005, 03:24

I am still looking for the birth place of my Great Grandfather and Grandfather. Despite the help and assistance I have had from a number of people, for which I will be eternally grateful, I have still been unable to find my roots. There seems little point in pursuing anything in the UK as I am not getting anywhere. I have checked the National Archives and also had a researcher to double check, there is no record of their Naturalization although my Grandfather stated on the 1901 census, he was a British subject. I need some thing in Italy to research, there must be some national records which hold their names, such as how were people recorded for conscription to the army and army records and so forth. Here is all the information I have. Can you suggest a way forward? Can You Offer Help with advice.

Antonio Gentile birth about 1838 to 1845
Girolomo Gentile birth about 1867 to 1872
Taken from the average of births on documents.

My grandmother said they came from what sounds like Pigeonisco near Naples. Picinsco has been mentioned, but there does not seem to be any evidence that they came from there.

Arrived in England about 1889.

1891 Dewsbury UK Census
Antonio Gentils/o age 46 and John Gentils/o age 19 Musicians from Italy,
121 Westgate Dewsbury , West Yorkshire

25 March 1892 Leeds UK
Girolomo Gentile marrying Annie Taylor as John Taylor, Street Musician, father Antony Musician.

11 July 1892 Dewsbury UK
Birth of eldest daughter Mary Gentile Taylor

1901 Census Chester
Girolomo Gentile 34 old musician: Census: With wife Annie 30 old and child: Eleanor 6 , Frances 3 and Rose 11 months, living at No 2 Crypt Court ,Chester, Cheshire. Mary Gentile Taylor not listed

19 March 1910 Shrewsbury UK
Birth of Antonio Gentile, son of: Girolomo Gentile and Elizabeth Gentile nee Woods ( second marriage)

12 May 1912 Chester UK
Maria Gentile Taylor (married Joseph DiPonio) as Maria Gentili, eldest daughter of Girolomo and Annie Taylor's first marriage. Fathers name given as Girolomo Gentili.

16 August 1913 Oswestry UK
Birth of my mother Josephine Victoria Gentile daughter of Girolomo Gentile and Elizabeth Gentile nee Woods( second marriage)

1917
Death of my Great Grandfather Antonio Gentile, Oswestry UK

25 April 1921 Oswestry UK
Wedding of my Grandfather and Grandmother and Grandfather, Girolomo Gentile and Elisabeth Woods.


26th May 1929 Chester UK
Chester UK, death of my Grandfather Girolomo Gentile.
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby VaDeb » 15 Aug 2005, 04:22

There are no central registries that record vital stats in Italy. You have to identify the comune or town to find the appropriate act.

The closest to a "central" registry is conscription records. They are kept by military districts, which usually correspond to a province. Males born from about 1855 to the present will be included. You can try and search these records on a provice level.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby brujaojos » 15 Aug 2005, 04:42

Hi There,

By any chance can you get your grandfather's naturalization records? It could list the town he was from.

Is there anything listed on the Marriage Application? Some documents could list town of origin like Death Certificates, Marriage Applications, and Naturalization Records.

Now the town you mentioned Picinisco, there is microfilm that you can order from the Family History Center. The film is limited. Here is the link for the film numbers.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library ... =1&last=50

Here is the link to find the nearest Family History Center.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library ... ibrary.asp

Here's the link to the town of Picinisco website.
http://www.comune.picinisco.fr.it/

It wouldn't hurt to try to write to them to ask for the Birth Act of your grandfather. The most that will happen is that they will tell you there is no record and then you know to look elsewhere.

Per the town's website Suanj put a post in for you. Did the town respond back to her?

Hope this helps,
Trish
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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 15 Aug 2005, 13:51

brujaojos

Thanks for the reply, we seem to have tried many of these things, Picinisco never replied to Suanj.

George
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 15 Aug 2005, 14:01

VaDeb

Thanks, this seems to be an issue which might return some results, are there any other national things I might try. There must have been some sort of Census in Italy otherwise how would they gather statistics. Surely all the conscription records would be fed back nationally and be controlled from one place. Is there any hope of Italy getting a national data base of births deaths and marriages.

George
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby suanj » 15 Aug 2005, 15:46

Woodworth wrote:brujaojos

Thanks for the reply, we seem to have tried many of these things, Picinisco never replied to Suanj.

George

Hi George, currently ...no again, I sended also by fax, and also I phone called to Office worker... I wait again... regards, suanj
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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 15 Aug 2005, 19:00

Hi Suanj,

I have been searching in the UK for any information as agreed when we last emailed each other. As you know I have been on to the records office of The Manchester Italian Embassy, but no luck either. I still have some enthusiasm to go on searching due to the help you have given me in the past.

Thanks for your support.



George
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby suanj » 15 Aug 2005, 19:19

Dear George,
about Manchester Embassy I understand that they have especially the record for italians in Lancashire..

Dear George, I wish to explane better, for all members, about this search .....as already you know, about my free assistence, after many time and many fax request, the Archivio di Stato di Frosinone finally replying that not have for birthyear interest the "Liste di Leva" for Antonio father.. for Girolamo this no possible why in 1891 census was of 19 old so sure no Liste di leva, no Ruoli Matricolari...why no militar service....
about Picinisco request in the Common, as already I saying, the last contact was in July 2005... I hope that this time I've an reply.. but, about the reply I think no positive, why the friend that have Picinisco microfilms no found nobody Gentile in Picinisco... nothing.. but is better the official reply from Picinisco Common...
as you already know, after many long time of search, I find where some person with complete name as Girolamo Gentile coming from, and in first query I faxed the OPI common in L'Aquila province, also why many people of OPI settled in the past in Picinisco, so is possible that Girolamo no born in Picinisco but only resident with own family....
I wait again.. as you know the italian law no oblige the Commonal Office workers and Archive of State workers for an search, no they are obligates only for an reply...the search is possible if the person send an precise request to Major second modalities and topic indicated for to search of person, in birthregistries, and wait the reply for the search, so came of person in Office in day from they indicated...

When the Commonal Offices and the Archive of State make an search for you or for me, this is an simply courtesy, no an law obligation, the obligation is about an reply (so: please to go here, or not are this record etc) ....
Also I found that in UK was some other Gentile(no Gentili that also was) as Giacomo and Luigi, and Carmine....


I understand that you have hast, but this search is many long why are very inconsistent data and changing surname, as very usual for italians in UK.... so most difficult...........
As you know, I found the 1891 census as Antonio and John Gentile( mistaken in Gentils) and you, in an first moment, thinks no just...

Dear George,

for my experience, when an record is no found, means that is necessary an search most deep, and so untill that the record is exactly just... obviously is necessary many time and many job...
Personally, from an year ago, I help you, and many time for the wait of Common and Archive's reply... but also in this search always I search on ancestry...

I hope that here someone can help you better and when I 've Opi common reply I let you will know soon!
Best regards, suanj
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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 15 Aug 2005, 20:29

Hi Suanj,

Please excuse my impatience, but I have been at the task for a very long time since 2001. I do appreciate what you are doing and what you have done, I am just frustrated that Italy has no national records that I can get my hands on to research.

Best wishes

George
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby suanj » 15 Aug 2005, 21:02

the archive of state are all nationals, but no digital records on line, perhaps in next future... some town already have the birthregistries on line, but normally no, I hope that you have some replies.. in Picinisco italian forum no reply again http://www.comune.picinisco.fr.it/modul ... 5b5901c543 .......... so I hope that you have here some reply... regards, suanj
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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby suanj » 17 Aug 2005, 15:59

Woodworth wrote:I am still looking for the birth place of my Great Grandfather and Grandfather. Despite the help and assistance I have had from a number of people, for which I will be eternally grateful, I have still been unable to find my roots. There seems little point in pursuing anything in the UK as I am not getting anywhere. I have checked the National Archives and also had a researcher to double check, there is no record of their Naturalization although my Grandfather stated on the 1901 census, he was a British subject. I need some thing in Italy to research, there must be some national records which hold their names, such as how were people recorded for conscription to the army and army records and so forth. Here is all the information I have. Can you suggest a way forward? Can You Offer Help with advice.

Antonio Gentile birth about 1838 to 1845
Girolomo Gentile birth about 1867 to 1872
Taken from the average of births on documents.

My grandmother said they came from what sounds like Pigeonisco near Naples. Picinsco has been mentioned, but there does not seem to be any evidence that they came from there.

Arrived in England about 1889.

1891 Dewsbury UK Census
Antonio Gentils/o age 46 and John Gentils/o age 19 Musicians from Italy,
121 Westgate Dewsbury , West Yorkshire

25 March 1892 Leeds UK
Girolomo Gentile marrying Annie Taylor as John Taylor, Street Musician, father Antony Musician.

11 July 1892 Dewsbury UK
Birth of eldest daughter Mary Gentile Taylor

1901 Census Chester
Girolomo Gentile 34 old musician: Census: With wife Annie 30 old and child: Eleanor 6 , Frances 3 and Rose 11 months, living at No 2 Crypt Court ,Chester, Cheshire. Mary Gentile Taylor not listed

19 March 1910 Shrewsbury UK
Birth of Antonio Gentile, son of: Girolomo Gentile and Elizabeth Gentile nee Woods ( second marriage)

12 May 1912 Chester UK
Maria Gentile Taylor (married Joseph DiPonio) as Maria Gentili, eldest daughter of Girolomo and Annie Taylor's first marriage. Fathers name given as Girolomo Gentili.

16 August 1913 Oswestry UK
Birth of my mother Josephine Victoria Gentile daughter of Girolomo Gentile and Elizabeth Gentile nee Woods( second marriage)

1917
Death of my Great Grandfather Antonio Gentile, Oswestry UK

25 April 1921 Oswestry UK
Wedding of my Grandfather and Grandmother and Grandfather, Girolomo Gentile and Elisabeth Woods.


26th May 1929 Chester UK
Chester UK, death of my Grandfather Girolomo Gentile.

Well, today I phone called again the Picinisco common, and I spoken with Anna Tullio; the search no was start obviously...(!!) so after my insistence, the Mrs made in direct by phone, she says:

nobody Girolamo Gentile birth in all years; nobody Girolamo Gentile resident in all year..

GENTILE is an surname no of Picinisco..

In all Picinisco, in all birthregistries are:
-GENTILE Antonio casually born in Picinisco in 1897, son of Costanzo and Anna GABRIELE, coming from and borns both in SAN DONATO VAL DI COMINO; this Antonio married with an woman(Tagliente surname) coming from Monte San Giovanni Campano.
-GENTILE Stefano born casually in Picinisco in 1900 etc..

More: I asked about the proverb "Picinisco fuori di Napoli"; yes Anna Tullio says, is an proverb tipical of Picinisco people...

mrs Anna Tullio say me that Gentile surname is tipical of SETTEFRATI common, and in the past Settefrati and Picinisco was as joined for administration town, so is possible that Girolamo and Antonio father was born in Settefrati common.
Also Anna Tullio says that is possible that Antonio Gentile father of Girolamo was married with an woman of Picinisco, but for the search is necessary to know the spouse name....

Now:
you have 3 news commons for the search:
San Donato Val di Comino

http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/ ... r&google=1

Settefrati http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/ ... trChoice=0,


Monte San Giovanni Campano

http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/ ... r&google=1


also you can send an request to Rosanisco(similar soundex) and to San Biagio Saracinisco( ditto) and to all commons in Valli di Comino( picinisco is an common in Valli di Comino area) as for exemple: Cassino, Villa Latina etc..

With this my post, I can say that was possible to make for you , well I made it..........

Now you, dear George, can make that you want for the success search.
My best regards,
suanj
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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 17 Aug 2005, 19:18

Hi Suanj,

Thanks for doing that for me. If I can't get there to look for myself, I will sort a letter out and send it to the places you have mentioned.

If you hear anything from Aquila I should be grateful if you would let me know.

Thanks once again

Best wishes

George
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby suanj » 16 Nov 2005, 22:26

Hi George, perhaps an little trace....

Girolamo 's birth.. PERHAPS, (if it is he as I think... in fact in 1904 in Chester town was only he as Girolamo Gentile name), well, if is he was born in Nov/Dec 1874... he had an friend in Chester: F A Halpin named.... I hope to find more... now ancestry no most available here from Italy, I try tomorrow... suanj
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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby Woodworth » 18 Nov 2005, 03:30

Hi, Suanj,


Thanks for continuing to look for my, I have greatly appreciated yourhelp.

I hope the information found could rekindle the search

I have been doing some further searching heare in the UK. I heard that a cousin had som information so I went to see him. He aid that his daugter had the visa issued in naples in 1917 for my Great Grandmother to come over to England to see Girolomo and also a picture of my Great Grandfather which had been passed on to his daughter. I have been asking my cousins daughter for weeks now to give me the information, but nothing has arrived, it would seem that she has misplaced it or more seriously lost it. this could have been the answer to all my problems but unfortunately I cant get the information and apart from the visa was issued in naples she can' remember any of the information. She says My Great Grandmother may have Been Carmeel or Camel, but she's not sure. I hope she eventially finds the information but tha could be any time and perhaps never.

George
My grandfather Girolomo ( giorolomo) Gentili came form Italy about 1875. He lived in Yorkshire, Chester and Shropshire and then returned back to Chester where he died in 1929. I need help to find his Italian birth place.

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Re: My Great Grandfathers and Grandfathers Birth Place

Postby suanj » 18 Nov 2005, 11:40

Dear George,

I always help the friends, and when it is possible I search for you.....

yes, also I am sure that this Girolomo(Girolamo) Gentile is your ancestor... the birthdate is around nov 1874 because he declare that in sep 1904 is 29 years and 10 months old... I wrote also in an public library in Phila for to obtain this record, because no available on ancestry.... perhaps Trish friend can help us... Girolamo came in USA for an short time, in visite to the friend F. A. Halpin also from Chester....

this is the record:

Name: Girolomo Gentile View Record

Arrival Date: 11 Sep 1904
Age: 29 years
Age Months: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Gender: Male
Ethnic Background: halian (italian)
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Haverford
Port of Arrival: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Friend's Name: F A Halpin
(Frank A Halpin ?? abt 1887 Neston, Cheshire, England Chester Cheshire )

Last Residence: Chester
Microfilm Roll Number: 46

----------------
but I think that in this record are not the italian birthplace........ but from Liverpool port cames in USA others Gentile, and for someone we have also the place:

-MONTENERODOMO, BOMBA( Chieti province),
-ROSCIOLO in Magliano de' Marsi, BARREA (L'Aquila province).. all in Abruzzo region near Picinisco...

-and also are SERSALE but is in Calabria so no probable... but from to remember.. because all is possible
....

the first name mother is CARMELA... ....
hoping some help about this...
best regards, suanj
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