Help interpreting record

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Anizio
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Help interpreting record

Postby Anizio » 29 May 2015, 19:48

Hello,

I was browsing the Atti Diversi for 1855 in Tagliacozzo when I came across a possible relative.

It is a death act for 1840, for Margherita Guidarelli, 65, daughter of Giacinto Guidarelli.
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... 8.jpg.html

Now, the Guidarelli family of Tagliacozzo was small. So small that I have never come across someone with that last name who was not related to me.

I need help figuring out if this woman can fit into my tree because it lists Giacinto's wife.

My Guidarelli of Tagliacozzo family is:

Luigi Guidarelli, born 1787 (married Teresa Scudieri), also the mayor in 1840
son of,
Angiolo Guidarelli, born 1759 died 1810 (married Aurora de Capite)
son of,
Giacinto Guidarelli, born 1732
son of,
Angelo Guidarelli, born 1707 (married Felice ________ )

As you can see, this Margherita would have been born in 1775 making her 16 years younger than Angiolo and 12 years older than Luigi - making it possible she is Giacinto's daughter but not certain. Although it seems unlikely that Giacinto would name his son Giacinto, thats a very modern American-Italian tradition.

The document I have for Giacinto and his father Angelo indicates that Angelo had a brother who did not marry or have children, and that Giacinto was an only child (a census document). And I have found no records for any siblings of Angiolo or Luigi.

Sorry, long post. But is it possible/likely/etc. that Margherita is the daughter of my Giacinto and therefore that the mother of Margherita is also the mother of my Angiolo?

I need some help.

Thanks!
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

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Tessa78
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Re: Help interpreting record

Postby Tessa78 » 29 May 2015, 23:31

At the bottom of the record it indicates that this copy conforms... and its use is for a marriage. It is then dated 20 January 1855.

Maybe you can search for a marriage (or banns) about that time and see if any of your family members can be found in the record. :-)

I see Margherita as age 67, and POSSIBLY with married name Mxxxini?
I also see her mother's name as possibly Criseide Mascari.

What was the name of Giacinto's wife?

T.

Anizio
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Re: Help interpreting record

Postby Anizio » 30 May 2015, 00:52

Yes I found 2 other copies of Margherita's birth records, each say the same thing. Husband is don Francesco Mancini, mother is Prassede. (One of Margherita's children is also named Prassede).

Unfortunately I don't know my Gacinto's wife's name. The only record I have of him is from Angiolo's death in 1810 (http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... 4.jpg.html) but it does not list his wife, and a record of him when he was a child from a Tagliacozzo catasto.

The only other Guidarelli's in any record in Tagliacozzo are children and grandchildren of Angiolo, other than Margherita. So I have nothing linking them for certain except probability (given I can't find any other Guidarelli's) and both having a father named Giacinto, which ordinarily I'd dismiss but in this case they seem to be the only Guidarelli's in the town :/
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information

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rjmichaels
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Re: Help interpreting record

Postby rjmichaels » 30 May 2015, 07:38

Hello,

First off, I am not familiar with this area so I do not know what is available. I would try to find processetti for a grandson of Giacinto's first that would fall in a timeframe in which it would have Giacinto's death (which would hopefully name his wife). Processetti differs from place to place but some of the best examples I have seen included the death records of not only the father and paternal grandfather, but also the mother and maternal grandfather.

If the only Guidarelli's are yours, then one should wonder if Angelo (Giacinto's father) came from another town. Based on the data given, Margherita would have been born ~1785 and your Giacinto, ~1732, making him ~53 (very possible - the oldest I've seen of a man fathering a child in my research was 70). You indicate Angiolo was born ~1759, making Giacinto ~27. Assuming this were his first child and allowing an up to 10 yr age difference between he and his wife, it would still make his wife ~43 at the time of Margherita's birth (again, possible). However, it is also possible his first wife died and he remarried, so, even if you knew Margherita''s mother, she may not necessarily be Angiolo's. Also, you stated about the unlikelihood of Giacinto having a son named Giacinto - while very uncommon, it is also likely, especially if Giacinto died prior to the birth.

Unfortunately, this looks to be one for the church records (unless you luck across a Guidarelli whose marriage would yield a wealth of processetti data). I do not know what exists in your comune but I recently hired a genealogist in Catanzaro to fill in some blanks (i.e. missing civil records that needed church record verification) and was quite happy with the results. That is always an option, I suppose (if you can find someone there).

I wish you the best of luck.
Sincerely,
Ray

P.S.

Thankfully I copied and pasted this. The first time I posted a response failed so I had to go back through everything. The second time it also failed.

carubia
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Re: Help interpreting record

Postby carubia » 30 May 2015, 10:01

Children used to be named after their father all the time in Italy, but under a very specific circumstance - if the father had died while the mother was pregnant. If the child was a girl she'd be given the feminine version of the father's name. The only exception would be if the father already had a living child with that name. This rule was actually the naming convention that I've seen the strongest adherence to, even more so than naming the first son after the father's father. In fact, only once did I ever see a case where it was not followed (maybe the mother didn't like her husband :lol: ).

It's also possible that the child was named someone else in the family (such as the mother's father or brother) who just happened to have the same name as the father.

OTOH, if a woman died in childbirth, rarely was the child, even a girl, given (a form of) the mother's name. However, in many cases the husband would name his next daughter, with his new wife, after his deceased previous wife.

Anizio
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Re: Help interpreting record

Postby Anizio » 30 May 2015, 19:46

Unfortunately Giacinto has two grandchildren by Angiolo, one never married and one married in 1809, Angiolo died in 1810.
Same situation with Margherita, her children married before she died.

I have tried getting a copy of the Tagliacozzo Catasto for 1750 from the Comune but they never answered me (does anyone know how I might ask for it? I offered to pay).

I have been to Tagliacozzo but could not get a hold of the priest.
I would appreciate any PMs with information about a good italian genealogist. Every one I've contacted so far has tried to rip me off (ie. $400 American for 2 records when all they planned to do was order microfilms from FamilySearch and browse them). :/
TIP: When asking for records from Italy, do NOT ask for an "estratto." ALWAYS ask for a "copia integrale." A photocopy of the original Act will contain more information


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