Cousin Born in Argentina

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rjmichaels
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Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 27 Jun 2015, 15:25

Hey everyone,

Now, this has been a conundrum for me for about ten years. I doubt it will get resolved but I am open to suggestions. I am a completionist when it comes to genealogy, so I do at least the general legwork for any collateral family of mine. However, my ancestor's brother went to Argentina for a few years (he got there in 1885) and then returned to Formicola. He then registered the birth of a daughter of his in 1898 (born 1892 in Argentina), and then used that to go and retrieve her. The problem is that when he registered her birth in Formicola, for mother, it just states a woman whom he is not related to who does not wish to be named. The daughter eventually immigrated to the United States but died in 1932. I have spoken to her granddaughter and supposedly the mother joined a convent, so that may be the reason for anonymity. How do I find her? She was illegitimate and I don't have her mother's name. She claimed on her manifest in 1920 that she was born in Buenos Aires but that doesn't really help either. The only things online appear to be baptismal records, which are not helpful at all because it doesn't appear that they went by a standard age for baptism (the birth dates for those baptized are all over the place).

I doubt there is much I can do except wait for an online database of Argentina births, but, hell, it's worth a shot to see if anyone has any ideas.

Sincerely,
Ray

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby Tessa78 » 27 Jun 2015, 19:40

According to the arrival manifest in 1920, Rosalia Simone Caputo and Giuseppe Caputo were from Formicola. They were married, possibly in Formicola. Giuseppe was leaving a relative (Nicola Caputo) in Formicola.

On the US Census of 1930 in Pittsburg, the ages when married would indicate a marriage in 1920 or 1919.

My thoughts are that your best bet would be the marriage allegati (attachments) to their marriage, probably in Formicola. That would contain their birth acts - Since Rosalia's birth was recorded in the town from a sentence of the tribunale (which I believe was dated 19 January 1898, authorizing the late recording of the birth and it was put into the allegati of the birth register), perhaps you will get lucky and a copy of the Tribunale sentence will be there.
You can write to the comune for copies of these records since online records end in 1910. :-(

OR... you can rent and view the microfilms of Formicola that are held by the LDS.
It looks like they have the marriages and allegati through 1929 for Formicola :-)
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog ... %20Library

T.

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 27 Jun 2015, 22:41

Thank you very much! I have the birth record (Parte II in 1898). Sadly, the allegati yielded nothing. I have her birth when registered in Formicola and her 1920 marriage is left blank (and actually her husbands's birth record is marked Giuseppe Caputo, marrying Rosalia Simone, ignoto.

What can I even do?

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 28 Jun 2015, 18:24

Hi you found Raffaele SIMOINE on 1895 Argentina census? maybe helpful to know the family members at this time... on the Birth registration in Formicola #8 of 1th part (Rosalia was born on 6 aug 1892); the tardive registration was made by court order... https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,349515801

the court order is in the Allegati of 1898 Birth register... it could be helpful to see it... and to read abt Argentina Republic.... it is a bit strange... no name town...you think Buenos Aires... maybe right... by court order maybe you can know more and to search also her baptism record in Argentina...
Maybe the woman was married at some other person, or just when he went back in italy she no followed, and given the daughter to Raffaele.. surely they don't was married...

However to search in 1895 census of Argentina, in 1898 Allegati of Formicola births maybe could be helpful for your search..
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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 30 Jun 2015, 02:32

I have been unsuccessful in finding her in the 1895 Argentina Census. Sadly, I have checked the Allegati and it provides no details on the mother. I'll have to look into the 1895 Argentina Census again and see if I have any better luck. It's just so unusual that the mother was not named (and not even a town). The baptismal records for Argentina are online but are not indexed by birth date, so unless the civil records are eventually put online, I don't know if I will ever solve this mystery (even then, her birth date could be off, the town is unknown, and I don't know what surname she would have been registered under).

Thank you!
Ray

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 30 Jun 2015, 07:27

Hi Ray,
yes I understand...in 1895 Argentina census we must search a Raffaele Simone single... he must be on... but if by your search no further infos in allegati... I believe very hard to find some other details... because these are the sources... I cannot understand what passport had Rosalia when back in Italy... surely.. she don't was on Raffaele italian passport... and she don't had argentinian passport... because in these cases she had a identity...

Raffaele don't given a Birth act or a baptism certificate of rosalia, because in these cases, he asked to registrar just the transcription in formicola Birth registry... instead he needs of a Court order for to recorder Rosalia birth in Formicola.. he don't had evidence ( as a argentinian baptism certificate) that Rosalia was his daughter really.. we have just his statement... the judge believed that and also because was necessary to give a identity at Rosalia...

But it could be possible also a different explanation... Rosalia raised as Raffaele daughter, mother unknown... but when embarked on the ship and arrived in Italy, what was her passport? and her first name? why we cannot find her in 1895 argentina census? it could be that she had different name and for that we cannot find her?

Something don't match in this story, because one this is certain: if Rosalia Birth was registered also in argentina, as daughter of Raffaele and unknown mother, it was enough to give her argentinian Birth certificate in Formicola and to ask the transcription...
Instead. no birthplace, no mother name, Court order, so Rosalia when arrived in Italy don't had identity.. the identity was given by judge order... so the mystery remain...
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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 02 Jul 2015, 03:51

Hi suanj,

The circumstances surrounding the whole thing are quite unusual. Argentina's immigration laws must have been extremely laxed. I would have thought that the allegati would have contained some sort of documentation from Argentina but, sadly, that was not the case. The Italian birth record seems to have been created with only the testimony of Raffaele.

I do not know when Raffaele returned from Argentina. I have not found him on the 1895 Census but I will check again. He returned in 1898 for Rosalia. I wonder if Rosalia was even her birth name...that was Raffaele's mother's name. Why was there such a delay in registering the birth unless he had just found out about his daughter? Using the Italian birth record, how could Raffaele have even proven to Argentinean authorities that it was his daughter? With the mother unknown and not even a town named, there is no data that would have proven useful to identify her.

I am going to have to do more research on Argentinean civil records. I cannot find any online. As I said, the baptismal records are online but, not knowing her actual birth name, they are not of any real help since they were not indexed to be searched by birth date.

Rosalia gave Buenos Aires as her birth place on her immigration record, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Unfortunately, she died young and only had a daughter, who was still a child when her mother died, and who has since died herself.

Ray

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 02 Jul 2015, 06:15

Hi Ray,
it seems to me that Raffaele wanted to erase all traces of Rosalia's life in Argentina . The date of birth may be false.. .. however in Caserta Archive are the civil judgments of Santa Maria Capua Vetere Court.. but I don't know if it are also 1898 judgments... for Rosalia Birth the judgment was of 19 Jan 1898 by Santa Maria Capua Vetere Court..
you can write in Caserta archive, asking if it could be possible to obtain the photocopies abt Rosalia Birth registration
maybe at judge Raffaele said more... it is just a hope...
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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 02 Jul 2015, 06:44

Maybe Rosalia was :


Carmen Elena Brigida Simone

Argentina, Buenos Aires, Catholic Church Records

Name: Carmen Elena Brigida Simone
Event Type: Baptism
Event Date: 20 Sep 1891 ( this is the baptism date, but born on 6 Aug 1891)
Event Place: Catedral Inmaculada Concepción del Buen Viaje, Morón, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Gender: Female
Father's Name: Rafael Simone
Mother's Name: Carmela Mariosa (Marioza?)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6R3H-BL
the Birth day and Birth month matching... the age of Raffaele matching... this Raffaele Simone, here the family in 1895 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6Q29-TSH
he married in Argentina maybe, but at part the children on 1895 census, it was born a last child in 1902 and in Argentina also
Teresa Simoni
Argentina, Buenos Aires, Catholic Church Records
Name: Teresa Simoni
Event Type: Baptism
Event Date: 01 Jan 1902
Event Place: Catedral Inmaculada Concepción del Buen Viaje, Morón, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Gender: Female
Father's Name: Rafael Simoni
Mother's Name: Cármen Mariosas

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X3X3-QT2..
and this record abt a:
SIMONE RAFFAELE 41 old Single ITALIANA DESCONOCIDO (unknown birthplace) AGRICULTOR ( profession) 1898/10/28 ( arrival date) DUCCHESA DI GENOVA ( ship name) GENOVA ( port of departure)

making the mystery more hard...
I believe that is a strange coincidence that Carmen Elena Brigida Simone was born on 6 aug 1891, 1 year before of Rosalia....
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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 02 Jul 2015, 10:09

well I made a little search, the children of this Raffaele Simone was:
birthyear
1889 Juan Roque Rafael Simone (29 oct 1889)
1890 Juan Antonio Simone
1891 Carmen Elena Brigida Simone
1893 Pascual Demetrio Vicente Simone
1894 Cipriana Sofia Semone
1902 (1 gen) Teresa Simoni

so from 1894 to 1901 no children... again one,Teresa, born on 1 jan 1902 and no more...
it could be interesting to find in the marriages the record, I see that are the birthplace wrote on .. I searched in 1888 and no luck...
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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 03 Jul 2015, 02:29

Hi suanj,

Thank you very much! Now, if only there was a way to prove it is him. If it were, why would he have only brought Rosalia back to Italy with him and then renamed her?

I went through my records. He was born 1 November 1857 in Formicola to Giuseppe Simone and Rosalina Savastano. His birth name was Angelo Raffaele Simone but he always went by Raffaele. He married Angela Santarcangelo on 20 September 1897 in Formicola.

Ray

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 03 Jul 2015, 02:58

Also, I forgot to mention something about his surname. The surname on all the records in Italy is Simone. However, nearly all relatives that immigrated to the United States took on the surname DeSimone for some reason. I've found that the surnames in the area of Italy he came from were quite fluid, and many changed over the generations (versus my families from Catanzaro where the surnames never deviated in the records. Examples include Pasquariello being changed to Pascarella with no explanation other than notations from 1868 simply stating it changed; Nuzzolo to Nuzzo to Nuzzi; and di Rauso to Rauso. These surnames that changed would also be used back and forth sometimes from record to record.

I have not seen the DeSimone variant in Italian records but wonder what led literally dozens of cousins to pick up DeSimone here. The only cousins that immigrated to the United States and did not adopt DeSimone were a branch that settled in Cleveland and did not immigrate until much later (1930s thru 1940s).

Ray

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 03 Jul 2015, 16:16

rjmichaels wrote:Hi suanj,

Thank you very much! Now, if only there was a way to prove it is him. If it were, why would he have only brought Rosalia back to Italy with him and then renamed her?

I went through my records. He was born 1 November 1857 in Formicola to Giuseppe Simone and Rosalina Savastano. His birth name was Angelo Raffaele Simone but he always went by Raffaele. He married Angela Santarcangelo on 20 September 1897 in Formicola.

Ray

Hi Ray,
so he returned to Italy with the daughter, and married having a daughter born in Argentina..
And the italian wife no said nothing.. accepted the situation... he had children from Angela Santarcangelo?
Because by the birthdates we can understand better if he is or he don't is the person that I found...
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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby rjmichaels » 03 Jul 2015, 17:09

Hi suanj,

I apologize; I use two computers (one has my files, the other does not). He married Angela Santarcangelo in Formicola on 20 September 1897 and had the following children: Giuseppe (1898-1899), Margeherita (1899-1938 - she immigrated to Pittsburgh too), Elisa (born 1901), and an Immaculata (who died in Formicola in 1929).

The mystery grows...I don't have an exact date on Immaculata...I have her death date from cousins but have not seen her in records.

Ray

P.S.
Your findings are quite possible but I ask what of the other children?

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Re: Cousin Born in Argentina

Postby suanj » 04 Jul 2015, 07:20

Giuseppe SIMONE Birth born on 21 Sep 1898, recorded on 23 Sep 1898... Raffaele was the informant... so at this date he was in Formicola... now we must think if the
Raffaele Simone that made the trip in Argentina on 1898, and arrived on 28 oct 1898
could be the Raffaele Simone that on 23 Sep.1898 was in Formicola...
Maybe it is no the same person.. and Carmen Elena Brigida Simone born on 6 aug 1891 is no Rosalia... we don't have possibility of to solve the mystery.. a clue could be if raffaele in some Birth act of italian children, is no the informant, because in foreign country...
however without to know with precision where Rosalia was born in Argentina.. the mystery cannot be solved...
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