Occupation: help with translation

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Occupation: help with translation

Postby Essgee » 29 Jan 2006, 23:06

One of the occupations listed on a friends ancestor's birth record is zago...

Any ideas?

Another was very hard to read....but it appears to be arrocotino...only positive about the ar at the beginning and the otino at the end. Any ideas?

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby vj » 29 Jan 2006, 23:36

Essgee,
You might try the attached website and see if anything is close to 'zago'
It looks like 'ar__otino may be arrotino? - knife grinder.
I hope this helps, Valarie

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Poin ... obs.html#Z

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Essgee » 30 Jan 2006, 02:07

Thanks........appreciate the link

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Maurizio » 30 Jan 2006, 21:14

Hi, Essgee.

As Vj correctly stated, the second word you mention is likely to be "Arrotino".
As for the second one, to my knowledge "Zago" is a not uncommon surname in the Veneto region, but it's not a word included in Italian dictionnary. Also, I can't figure any other occupation with a similar phonetic sound (the closest I can think to is "Sarto").
Are you absolutely sure about the spelling?

Ciao,
Maurizio

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby suanj » 30 Jan 2006, 21:52

Essgee wrote:One of the occupations listed on a friends ancestor's birth record is zago...

Any ideas?

Another was very hard to read....but it appears to be arrocotino...only positive about the ar at the beginning and the otino at the end. Any ideas?


Zago is dialectal shape of diacono= deacon, sacristan.
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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Maurizio » 30 Jan 2006, 22:32

Buongiorno, Suanj.

Molto interessante, non lo sapevo proprio.

In that case, it would be interesting to know in which of Italian dialects the word "Zago" has that particular meaning, in order to see if the area can match with the place where this person came.
Another step may be considering in which kind of act or document Essgee found that term: I makes me wonder the fact that a catholic "deacon" could be the (legal) ancestor of anyone, whereas a "sacristan" would be a really uncommon occupation to declare, let's say, in an emigration document...

Ciao,
Maurizio

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby suanj » 31 Jan 2006, 00:16

Ciao Maurizio:
Zago è diacono, sagrestano proprio in dialetto veneto..

Zago word is deacon, sacristan in dialect of Veneto... suanj
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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Essgee » 02 Feb 2006, 05:49

Maurizio and Suanj.......

Thanks to you both. I am not sure what region they were concerned with. I do know they have been going through a lot of church records, so if I remember this one correctly, it was a birth record. I looked at the record and the term "Zago" was definately listed as occupation...and it appeared to be capitalized. This was very clear. I don't see these people often, but next time I will ask them to make me a copy and I will see if I can scan it and send.

Thank you both once again...I knew I could count on friends here to help out!

Hope you both have a great evening........Susan

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Essgee » 02 Feb 2006, 06:01

Ok....

It was from a death record. It is from Fossombrone in the Marche. Does this mean a different applicable dialect is in play so the meaning of ZAGO is now different?

My understanding is sooooo limited, I am embarrassed......

Susan

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby suanj » 02 Feb 2006, 12:01

No, because also if zago is a word originated in veneto dialect, it is used also in Italy north... regards, suanj
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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Maurizio » 02 Feb 2006, 15:55

Hi both.

Suanj, could you please tell me where did you get the meaning of the world "Zago"? Which book or other source, I mean?
I'm asking you that because I've lived my whole life in Northern Italy and I never heard that term used, nor in that particular neither in other meaning. Also, I asked my parents, whose mother tongue is venetian dialect , and they too never heard that word...
But they come from western Veneto, Verona, and that term could come from the area of Venice or Padova, but I tend to exclude it could have a broad use in the rest of the country.
Instead, couldn't it be an abbreviation for something else? I guess if and when Susan may post an image of the document, we'll be able to eventually make some more reliable conjectures.

Ciao,
Maurizio

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby suanj » 02 Feb 2006, 17:09

Maurizio:
1-Veneto dialects is no only venetian dialect, but venetian dialect is a part of Veneto dialects;
2-zago is a word of ancient dialects especially of Venezie( no VENEZIA but Venezie: friuli Venezia Giulia, Trentino Alto Adige, Veneto), Emilia Romagna, Lombardia regions;
-so if you never knowed about this, I cannot say you more that this :D :

"........... nelle Venezie e anche nell’Emilia Romagna e nella Lombardia orientale, ha alla base il soprannome e appellativo Zago formato dal nome regionale (veneto-trentino, bresciano e bergamasco, ma anticamente di un’area più vasta) zago, cioè diacono.
La voce zago, oltre che "diacono", "sacrestano, chierichetto", in alcune zone ha anche il significato figurato di "semplicione, zotico".


and more :

from italian genealogist Giacomo GANZA from Villa di Tirano (Sondrio):
"Una possibile derivazione potrebbe derivare dal fatto che Zago in dialetto veneto è il nome con il quale viene chiamato un Chierico, cioè uno che sta per diventare prete e a volte zaghi sono anche detti i chierichetti."

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Maurizio » 03 Feb 2006, 01:45

Raffaella,
ti chiedo scusa nel caso il mio intervento ti sia sembrato scortese (colpa della mia scarsa confidenza con l'Inglese, probabilmente).
Ti assicuro che non era assolutamente mia intenzione mettere in dubbio l'attendibilità della tua ipotesi. So che sei sempre molto precisa e documentata nei tuoi interventi e, anche per questo, ero curioso di conoscere la fonte su cui ti eri basata (anche per le citazioni che hai riportato, per esempio), perchè etimologia e origine geografica dei nomi sono un argomento che mi stuzzica molto, pur non essendo particolarmente ferrato in materia.
Spero davvero di non averti involontariamente offeso.
Con stima, Ciao
Maurizio

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby suanj » 03 Feb 2006, 11:55

Maurizio,
non è un problema, assolutamente non mi hai offesa, figurati!

Soltanto che avendo poco tempo libero, mi scoccia dover ripetere le stesse cose a suffragio di quanto innanzi detto da me stessa...

Piuttosto ho notato che, in merito ai miei interventi, qui-come altrove- c'è chi velatamente tenta sempre di screditare... non mi riferisco a te ovviamente.
Sono sempre molto felice di leggerti e di trovarti qui; siamo pochissimi dall'Italia che rispondiamo a questo forum ed io sono stata la prima italiana penso... ed è sempre bello colloquiare nella propria lingua...
Spero che i nostri amici si sforzino di imparare l'italiano e scrivere in italiano, come noi ci sforziamo di farlo in inglese...

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Re: Occupation: help with translation

Postby Essgee » 03 Feb 2006, 21:10

Suanj and Maurizio....

This is the note I received from the couple looking for the meaning of ZAGO:

I am certain that your first contact is correct as having the meaning of Zago to be deacon or sacristan. The document is question is a civil record of a death on a pre-printed form. I've noticed that information entered on such forms, whether for deaths or births, seem to follow the same format with regard to information entered. In fact, in cases where the entire record is handwritten, the same format is generally followed. The names of the providers of the information entered, and of the persons witnessing the document, are given, followed by the age, profession and residency. In the quote below, I am giving the information entered as underlined, as it would look on the document:

"....sono comparsi Buffoni Don Pietro, di anni cinquantadue, sacerdote, domiciliato in Fossombrone, e Aloisi Beniamino, di anni cinquantadue, zago, domiciliato in Fossombrone,......"

In the context of the meaning of zago provided by your contact, this would be translated as:

"...there appeared before me Rev. Pietro Buffoni, age 52, priest, residing in Fossombrone, and Beniamino Aloisi, age 52, deacon, residing in Fossombrone, ....."

The document goes on to give the details of the death of one Palmiera Rossini, and gives time and date of death, residence of the deceased, and the names, ages and professions of her parents.

Please thank your friends for their input. I find it interesting that the word zago is in the dialect of the Veneto region, yet seems to have the same meaning in the dialect of the Marches. The document above, by the way, dates from 1899, well before the establishment of Tuscan (Florentine) Italian as the national language.

So it appears, the translation is right on. Thanks once again for all your help.......I hold both of you in the highest esteem!

Susan


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