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pgordon2
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Please Help

Postby pgordon2 » 14 Nov 2006, 04:38

Hello-

I need some advice on a serious topic. I just became engaged 6 weeks
ago. My fiance was married before, her ex-husband IS Catholic, but they were
married outside the church in a civil ceremony. We need to prove he is
catholic in order for us to get married. He lives overseas and has not
cooperated in producing his baptismal certificate. We expected this since he
was very abusive both mentally and physically. He lives in Italy.
My priest, directed me to the Tribunal, who
directed me right back to my priest. Does anyone have advice as to what we
can do?

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jcsm400
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Re: Please Help

Postby jcsm400 » 14 Nov 2006, 05:00

Hi,

Perhaps they people at the Catholic Answers Forum can help>>>

http://forums.catholic.com/index.php

Good luck.

jcsm
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brujaojos
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Re: Please Help

Postby brujaojos » 14 Nov 2006, 22:05

Hi There,

I have a crazy question to ask you. Why do you need your fiance's ex-husband's baptismal certificate in order for you to get married? Or am I missing the point here?

I'm Catholic and live in the USA. Here's what I know.

If you are Catholic and never married in the Catholic Church then the Church never regonizes the marriage. Therefore, if you go to get married a second time, the second marriage can be in a Catholic Church.

However, if you are Catholic and get married in the a Catholic Church, and then get a divorce. You're supposed to get an annulment in order to get remarried in the Catholic Church.

I hope this helps some!
Trish
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nuccia
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Re: Please Help

Postby nuccia » 14 Nov 2006, 22:15

Trish,

I'm glad you brought this up...It is the same in Canada. I just called my Church to confirm this.
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Esperanza
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Re: Please Help

Postby Esperanza » 14 Nov 2006, 22:31

brujaojos wrote:Hi There,

I have a crazy question to ask you. Why do you need your fiance's ex-husband's baptismal certificate in order for you to get married? Or am I missing the point here?
Trish


Whew.... great question to ask... I just didn't have the guts...

Trish, this morning I started to post a reply here.. wondering if I was asking a crazy question myself... so I didn't post...

My second question was... why is his priest making him go through all this? Is he the one that is making this into a difficult situation?

Are children involved?

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jcsm400
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Re: Please Help

Postby jcsm400 » 14 Nov 2006, 22:31

That is also what I always thought, but wasn't sure.....so provided the Catholic Anwser Forum.

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brujaojos
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Re: Please Help

Postby brujaojos » 14 Nov 2006, 22:47

Hi Everyone,

The ex-husband has nothing to do with a couple getting married, even if there are children from that marriage.

The only thing you need to get remarried whether in a Church or Civil Service is the Divorce Decree. You have to prove that you were at one time legally married and that now you are legally divorced. That's it!

However, if you were married in the Catholic Church and want to get remarried in the Catholic Church, then you need to get an annulment before you can remarry in a Church again.

An Annulment does cost a lot of money and they dig deep into your personal life.

I hope this helps,
Trish
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suanj
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Re: Please Help

Postby suanj » 15 Nov 2006, 11:31

pgordon2 wrote:Hello-

I need some advice on a serious topic. I just became engaged 6 weeks
ago. My fiance was married before, her ex-husband IS Catholic, but they were
married outside the church in a civil ceremony. We need to prove he is
catholic in order for us to get married. He lives overseas and has not
cooperated in producing his baptismal certificate. We expected this since he
was very abusive both mentally and physically. He lives in Italy.
My priest, directed me to the Tribunal, who
directed me right back to my priest. Does anyone have advice as to what we
can do?

Hi, Trish your reply is very good!

In any case I don't understand because is necessary the baptism certificate of ex husband...
if your fiancee married before ONLY with civil ceremony, and she obtained the divorce, also for italian law she can to remarrie after divorce sentence...

In Italy are 3 types of marriages:

1-ONLY civil with no religious effects

2-religious with civil effects( the spouse make the wedding in the church and for Patti Lateranensi by Italian government and Vatican, this marriage have also civil effects, this marriage is called "matrimonio Concordatario") this wedding is the normal marriage in Italy; the spouse joining in marriage by religious ceremony and the marriage documentation (enter max 5 days from wedding) it must be sended by priest in civil records office; the civil records OFFICER must to trascribe the marriage act in marriage registry enter 24 hours....

3-OnLY religious ( no with civil effects)

so your fiancee case seems the first, and I don't understand why they want the baptism certificate of previous husband.. why? it don't have sense...


regards, suanj
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Re: Please Help

Postby pgordon2 » 06 Jan 2007, 18:42

Hi guys. It is necessary to get the ex-husbands baptismal certificate because he is catholic, but chose to marry outside the church. This is what my prienst, and the tribunal told me. We need to PROVE he is catholic, to nullify the marriage in the eyes of the church. Thank you for all your thoughtful responses.

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Re: Please Help

Postby jcsm400 » 06 Jan 2007, 19:05

Ok. If I'm reading you correctly, the tribunal wants his birth certificate before proceeding with the annulment.

This is just a suggestion/idea, but sometimes a person in authority has more persuasive powers than others, so perhaps by contacting the Catholic priest in the town that the exhusband is living in, just maybe he will be willing to help.

jcsm
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suanj
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Re: Please Help

Postby suanj » 07 Jan 2007, 08:52

pgordon2 wrote:Hi guys. It is necessary to get the ex-husbands baptismal certificate because he is catholic, but chose to marry outside the church. This is what my prienst, and the tribunal told me. We need to PROVE he is catholic, to nullify the marriage in the eyes of the church. Thank you for all your thoughtful responses.

If the ex-husband married outside of church, it means that in Italy the marriage was only as civil ceremony, and in this case, for first thing you must to ask the copy of civil marriage act abt your woman( in the Municipality of marriage, civil records office in Town Hall); when you obtained it, you can to search if it is a separation sentence by court in Italy (always in Court of town of marriage), and normally only after 3 years of separation sentence it is possible to have the divorce sentence, if they made the request it...

-when a person, in Italy, married only by civil ceremony, outside of church, and after divorced, they can make another marriage (civil or religious);

- in the second marriage, if the person want a religious marriage, it need for first thing to have:1) the copy of marriage in Italy, 2) the copy of separation sentence in Italy, 3)the copy of divorce sentence in Italy, 4)and the "nulla-osta/no-impediment" declaration of italian church that your fiance never married in church before in Italy or in the world... suanj
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Re: Please Help

Postby mler » 07 Jan 2007, 18:38

The Catholic Church does not need to nullify a marriage that it never acknowledged. That your fiancee's husband was Catholic has no bearing on this. If two Catholics choose to marry in a civil ceremony, the Church does not recognize that marriage, and, therefore, is in no position to nullify it.

May I suggest that you go to a different church and speak to a different priest. Simply tell him that you and your fiancee plan to marry and would like to do so in the church. Of course, you'll need to tell him that she was married before, but don't volunteer that the ex is/was Catholic. Simply state that she was married only in a civil ceremony and wants this marriage to be one recognized by the Church.

BTW, I know it is customary to go to your own parish, but more and more, Catholics choose their parishes not by location but by the philosophy of the clergy. Choose a church with a more liberal philosophy.

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Re: Please Help

Postby nuccia » 07 Jan 2007, 20:13

Here, Here, mler..

I think thats excellent advice and this poster has nothing to lose. I know several people who have been in the same situation and didn't have to go through what this poor couple is going through.

Good luck to you both and please let us know how it works out for you.
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