Stuck, Can't find marriage record

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Nello-LosAngeles
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Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby Nello-LosAngeles » 19 Mar 2007, 23:41

My grandfather, Paolo (Paolino) Panelli, birth June 15, 1881; arrived in US 1903; born Capanorri, Lucca. Grandmother, Amata Antongiovanni, birth July 31, 1877; arrived in US 1909; born Capanorri, Lucca.
I am having difficulty finding their marriage record. They SHOULD have been married in Capanorri between 1899 and 1903, but I can't find the record. Does anyone have access to marriage record in the Capanorri or the broader area of LUCCA for the time specified? They had a child in Italy in early 1903, Maria Panelli. I am trying to track that down also.

There is a possiblity that they did not marry until Amata came to the USA. If they married here it would have been in northern Calif. 1909. Any help on searching county records there would be appreciated. Counties, NAPA, CONTRA COSTA, SACARMENTO, MONTERY.

Thanks for your advise.
Nello

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby nuccia » 20 Mar 2007, 00:17

Nello,

Is this your family?

1910 United States Federal Census
about P Panelli
Name: P Panelli
Age in 1910: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Hired Man
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Home in 1910: St Helena, Napa, California
Marital Status: Married
Race: Mulatto
Gender: Male
Year of Immigration: 1909
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
E A Stanghellini 22
P Panelli 28
A Panelli 31

Source Citation: Year: 1910; Census Place: St Helena, Napa, California; Roll: T624_90; Page: 7A; Enumeration District: 82; Image: 430.

1910 Census
*edit: Corrected link to Census

If this is them, then according to the information given, they were married
for 9 years, Amata gave birth to 3 children and only one of them was still living in 1910. This would put the marriage date at about 1901. Immigration didn't occur until after that so its safe to assume they most likely married in Italy.
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby nuccia » 20 Mar 2007, 00:35

Well, I take back what I said in the above post. According to Amata's ship manifest she arrived in America single....something is off.


First Name: Amata
Last Name: Antongiovanni
Ethnicity: Italy, Ital No
Last Place of Residence: Tassignano, Italy
Date of Arrival: Sep 24, 1909
Age at Arrival: 32y Gender: F Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: La Provence
Port of Departure: Havre
Manifest Line Number: 0001


Page 1

Page 2

She was going to see her cousin, Paulino Panelli in Sacramento. Were your grandparents cousins?

Since she arrived from Tassignano, did you search there for her marriage record? Also, lots of markings on her manifest which can hold a lot of info.
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby nuccia » 20 Mar 2007, 00:43

If you look at what I assume is Paulo's manifest though, it states he was married and mentions he is going to see his ? in law Antongiovanni Domenico and daughter..hope I'm reading this correctly. Another set of eyes would be great.

First Name: Paoleno
Last Name: Panelli
Ethnicity: Italian North, North Italian
Last Place of Residence: Capannori
Date of Arrival: Mar 13, 1903
Age at Arrival: 22y Gender: M Marital Status: M
Ship of Travel: Weimar
Port of Departure: Genoa
Manifest Line Number: 0003


http://ellisisland.org/search/shipManif ... 2616160087
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby nuccia » 20 Mar 2007, 00:54

Manifest for daughter, Maria, born about 1903 and is traveling with Pelligrini Maria. Leaving uncle Luigi Panelli behind and is going to see her father Paolo in California. I apologize if you already have all this info but I thought it important to post again just to follow the family.


First Name: Maria
Last Name: Panelli
Ethnicity: Italy, North Italian
Last Place of Residence: Capanori, Italy
Date of Arrival: Sep 26, 1913
Age at Arrival: 10y Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: France
Port of Departure: Le Havre
Manifest Line Number: 0006


Page 1

Page 2


I would definitely try Amata last residence to a marriage certificate first in case you haven't doe it. Usually the marriage took place in the brides town and it seems strange her last residence was different from her daughters and yet her daughter was born in the same town as her father....???? Could it be they listed the birth place incorrectly for the daughter? You may want to try the other town for her birth certificate as well.
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby Nello-LosAngeles » 20 Mar 2007, 04:16

Nuccia,
Thanks, This is all correct info. Amata's Tassignano is a small hamlet a 10 min walk from Capanorri and all records are recorded in Capanorri. There is a church in Tassignano, small very old, 1600, with one old priest there. I have been told that there is little chance of him doing any record search. I have also been told that marriages also had to be civil recording at the comune which would be Capanorri. Is this correct?

What do you think the marking on Amata's maifest mean? Did you notice the record on the last line of the preceding page. that is her younger sister who is coming to Calif for an arranged marraige.

The 1910 census is them. Note 3 children one living but none living with them. Maria was in Italy with Paolo's brother until 1913. I think they had twins in Italy before Maria's birth that died at an early age. I recall my grandmother telling me something about that.

There is a fair chance they never married in Italy. Amata came to the US looking for Paolo. he was to have sent for her and that did not happen. So she went to France to earn fare to come to the US, but that's another story.

These were very poor people. I read someplace that dowrys were often only availble for the first born daughter, but that's speculation here.

Did you notice that there are two manifest with Paolo's name two weeks appart. the first one has a line throught it. What do you think that meant?

Thanks
Nello

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby wldspirit » 20 Mar 2007, 04:45

Don't give up on the church just yet......send a letter, and ask if perhaps the priest knows of someone within the church who could perform this search for a fee...perhaps a nephew or a trusted parishioner....
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby nuccia » 20 Mar 2007, 06:55

Did you notice that there are two manifest with Paolo's name two weeks appart. the first one has a line throught it. What do you think that meant?


This would mean that for some reason, the person either didn't make the ship or was detained and his name was added to the next ship manifest. Usually when its this much time passing and no other info is filled out on the manifest, it means he didn't make the first ship. In your Paolo's case, he made the ship. The Paolo who you are referring to was born in 1871, not 1881 so it was someone else. By the way, did Paolo later call himself Peter? I think I found him in subsequent Census's under that name. If thats the case, he may also have been known as Pietro and thats why you are having trouble finding the record you want??

There is a fair chance they never married in Italy. Amata came to the US looking for Paolo. he was to have sent for her and that did not happen. So she went to France to earn fare to come to the US, but that's another story.


Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. Many men went to America and started new families there. Some got away with it, others got caught by their wives when they went over and made surprise visits. My great aunt found her husband living with another woman when she chose to surprise him by visiting once WW1 was over (I think it may have been the reason WW2 started.. :lol: :lol: ) I'm not sure why Amata stated single on her ship manifest and going to see her cousin Paolo.

What do you think the marking on Amata's maifest mean?


It looks like it might be the date she naturalized and perhaps her naturalization number. Maybe someone can confirm this? Here is a link to what manifest markings mean...

http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/manifests/name/

I hadn't noticed her sisters listing, but then I didn't look. Will have a look and let you know. I also would take wldspirits advice and write away to the Church in Italy. You have nothing to lose. Maybe you could also send away for his Social Security application which if filled out correctly may give you that info. In Canada, a person has to list parents names and marriage dates on their application. I'm assuming the same holds true for American applications. This might give you the year. The cost should be about $27 if you know his SSN and year of death, otherwise it may cost more for a search.

I'll provide an address when I get in later..have to go to work now..(((GROAN)))
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby Nello-LosAngeles » 20 Mar 2007, 15:04

Nuccia,
Paolo never called himself Peter, but it is possible that the census taker listed him that way. In the '20 & "30 census they were in Kern County, Calif.
I have copies of there birth record from Italy. Paolino is the name on it.

Before I write the church, pls clarify this. If was required that a church marriage had to be recorded at the comune, why would a church search help?

Neither of them ever naturualize as far as I know to this point. I have a request in progress at US Immigration. Next week I am traveling to a NARA site to search also.

Thanks
Nello

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record: perhaps FOUND!

Postby suanj » 20 Mar 2007, 16:28

[url=http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/ca/kern/vitals/marriages/pac-pay.txt]This file was transcribed from records at the Kern County
Recorders Office and contributed for use in the USGenWeb
Archives by: C.Murray[/url]


Certificate # Date Groom Bride
57- 06/06/1911 PAOLO, PANELLA-ANTOGIOVANNI, AMATTA
57 - 06/06/1911 PAOLO, PANELLA-ATONGIOVANNI, ARNOTA
427 -06/06/1911 PAOLO, PANELLI-AMOTA, ALONGIOVANNI

best regards, suanj
Visit my website:
ITALIAN ORIGIN SEARCH

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby Nello-LosAngeles » 20 Mar 2007, 22:36

Suanj,
Thank you! A month ago I spent 2 hours at the Kern County Recorders Office and did not find their marriage record. I used every possible spelling of Panelli, but never, ever thought to look under his first name.

I kiss your hands and your feet. Nuccia, yours too.

Nello

Other good news! See my post in Immigration forum.

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby nuccia » 20 Mar 2007, 22:48

Hi Nello and Suanj..

This is certainly great news! Suanj...excellent find. :D :D Finally Nello, you have the answer to your puzzle. Going to check out your other post now.
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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby micollins13 » 07 May 2007, 21:00

Shot in the dark here, but I was wondering, while searching for your relatives did you get any incorrect repsonses regarding a Fernando Panelli or Virginia Fransozo?

Our family history on the Italian side goes back to 1902 the birth of my Great Grandfather, and his marrage to Virginia, we cannot seem to locate antyhing further than that, Virginia's ancestors are believed to be from Venice and Fernando we know was from Lucca.

IF not, do you have any ideas on how i could research this?

Mike

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby Nello-LosAngeles » 09 May 2007, 03:13

Mike,
The are MANY Panelli's in the Commune of Capannori, province of Lucca. I notice you are from San Jose. My name is Nello Panelli. I had a cousin Fred Panelli, who lived in the Bay Area.
My Grandfather was born in Capannoi in 1881. He was from a large family. I have been doing very specific researching on "Panelli" and have not recorded what I did not need. Get me a some specific in re Fernando Panelli And I'll look at my notes from a recent seach of the 1900's. Year of birth, Immigration date. Gid he live in Californa? Where? I'll ask my mother if she recalls a Fernado.
Nello

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Re: Stuck, Can't find marriage record

Postby morrewine » 12 May 2007, 06:42

Hello to all,

I can't believe I stumbled across this website this evening and found so many Panelli's. My father was born in Capannori in 1933 and emigrated at 17 to Australia. He met my mother in Australia, and in 1966 we moved to the SF Bay Area in California to be with my father's immediate family.

I's amazing how many of us there are, even a retired Supreme Court Justice of California, Justice Edward Panelli.
Looking forward to further communication,
moreno


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