A unique ancestor problem

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denman922
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A unique ancestor problem

Postby denman922 » 18 Jun 2007, 00:31

My maternal maternal great grandfather cannot be found entering the country or in the census of 1910,1920,1930 and WW1 drft reg.
Alessandro Froner born in Levico Terme, Italy/Austria 1889. He came to America 1905/1906.

I used the Steve Morse pages and searched by first name only, I went through ALL the Alessandro's that came to America. I tried all people who came from Levico. I can only suspect that his manifest was lost? However, I cannot find the other docs listed above. He must not have liked to answer questions or hated paperwork or something. dunno. The only record I have found on him "On-line" is his WW2 drft reg card. Anyone got an idea.?
Descendant of Rotolo of Rizziconi, Cabriel/Gabriel of Belluno(BL), Froner,Ell,Ognibeni,Moschen of Levico Terme(TN), Libardi,Avancini of Barco di Levico(TN), Bernardi of Ponte nelle Alpi(BL), Metz of Bronzolo(BZ), Bonatti of Martello (BZ),Atz of Salorno(BZ

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby misbris » 18 Jun 2007, 01:50

I don't know how to link the image, but if you look at this manifest, she is meeting brothers Cesare and Alessandro in NY. I tried to get Cesare's manifest, but it seems to be mislinked. There are many others on this site who have much more experience than I do. But try looking for Cesare and Giulia in the census. Or have you found them already?


First Name: Giulia
Last Name: Froner
Ethnicity: Austria, Italian No.
Last Place of Residence: Levico, Austria
Date of Arrival: Dec 21, 1912
Age at Arrival: 26y Gender: F Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: La Provence
Port of Departure: Havre
Manifest Line Number: 0028

First Name: Cesare
Last Name: Froner
Ethnicity: Tirolese-Tirolese
Last Place of Residence: Levico
Date of Arrival: Aug 18, 1906
Age at Arrival: 25y Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: New York
Port of Departure: Southampton
Manifest Line Number: 0006

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby denman922 » 18 Jun 2007, 02:09

I assume that he came to America around 1905. I think he came with his two sisters, a brother-in-law, and a nephew. Thier names are :
Alessandro Froner my GG
Emma Carlotta Froner Tonioli his sister
Guiditta Froner Tomasi his sister
Giulio Tomasi brother-in-law
Camillo Tomasi nephew

I must assume that because I cannot find any of these people when they entered the country, they must have all come together at the same time and that manifest page I need is lost or destroyed.
Descendant of Rotolo of Rizziconi, Cabriel/Gabriel of Belluno(BL), Froner,Ell,Ognibeni,Moschen of Levico Terme(TN), Libardi,Avancini of Barco di Levico(TN), Bernardi of Ponte nelle Alpi(BL), Metz of Bronzolo(BZ), Bonatti of Martello (BZ),Atz of Salorno(BZ

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby wldspirit » 18 Jun 2007, 08:17

Here is a possible manifest for Camillo, traveling with a Guiditta:

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957

Name: Camillo Tamasi
Arrival Date: 27 Dec 1904
Estimated birth year: abt 1901
Age: 3
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Antwerp, Belgium
Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: Italian
Ship Name: Vaderland
Search Ship Database: View the Vaderland in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Line: 8
Microfilm Serial: T715
Microfilm Roll: T715_524
Page Number: 95

Have you seen this manifest? I can link if interested.
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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby wldspirit » 18 Jun 2007, 08:40

If this is the correct family in the 1920 census, Giuditta list immigration of
1904.....on the actual census image, the name has clearly been mispelled:

1920 United States Federal Census

Name: Guisitto Julian
Home in 1920: Highland, Orange, New York
Age: 34 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Birthplace: Austria
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Spouse's name: Biagio
Father's Birth Place: Austria
Mother's Birth Place: Austria
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Female
Year of Immigration: 1904
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Image: 39

Household Members: Name Age
Biagio Julian 42
Guisitto Julian 34
Alfred Julian 9
Salman Julian 7
Camillo Tomasi 18
Guilietta Tomasi 12
Frank Bauodetti 49

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby denman922 » 18 Jun 2007, 12:10

wldsprt thank you for that manifest find. That was on I had not yet found. My Gt Grandfather is not on that one, though. That leaves Alessandro and Carlotta. Carlotta was married to Angelo Tonioli and they may have come over together. Angelo came to America earlier, but he went back to Levico and the two of them were married in 1906 in Levico. I have the State of Family Certificate. So, possibly Alessandro came with them when he came over. The Census 1920 is correct, notice you see Guiditta married to a different man. Her first husband was murdered Oct. 1907 in revenge for another murder in Aug. 1907 in Highland Falls, NY. A very interesting story. A descendant of the man who committed the second murder, posts on this site, though I have not yet made contact with them.
Descendant of Rotolo of Rizziconi, Cabriel/Gabriel of Belluno(BL), Froner,Ell,Ognibeni,Moschen of Levico Terme(TN), Libardi,Avancini of Barco di Levico(TN), Bernardi of Ponte nelle Alpi(BL), Metz of Bronzolo(BZ), Bonatti of Martello (BZ),Atz of Salorno(BZ

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby wldspirit » 18 Jun 2007, 17:03

We have fantastic members here who are great at finding those "missing manifest"......so I'm sure we'll find Alessandro and Carlotta. :)

Murder and revenge? Now that makes for some interesting family history....never know what "skeletons" will fall out of the family closet... :P
I would pm the poster, how ironic to have you both posting here with this shared history!!!

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby denman922 » 18 Jun 2007, 21:02

I found Carlotta. Alessandro's older sister. She was married to Angelo Tonioli, and they spelled the surname wrong on the manifest. I used a Steve Morse page, and I scrolled through 4000+ "Angelo T's" that arrived between 1904 and 1907. whew!! Now, all I have left to find is Alessandro's manifest and three census.

I have been researching my family history for three years. I have spent most of this time on my mother's side of the family. My fathers side of the family came to America from Rizziconi, Calabria settled in Wilkes-Barre, Penn. then Astoria, Queens then Lodi, NJ. Pretty much uneventful lives.

My mothers side: 1 murder, 1 execution, 1 kidnapping, several jobsite deaths, intriguing war expieriences, a VERY interesting Ellis Island detainment of three of my Uncles, a nun that became ill and was returned to her parents and susequently died, etc..... and some mysteries I cannot explain.
Descendant of Rotolo of Rizziconi, Cabriel/Gabriel of Belluno(BL), Froner,Ell,Ognibeni,Moschen of Levico Terme(TN), Libardi,Avancini of Barco di Levico(TN), Bernardi of Ponte nelle Alpi(BL), Metz of Bronzolo(BZ), Bonatti of Martello (BZ),Atz of Salorno(BZ

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby vj » 18 Jun 2007, 21:37

Wow! That's a lot of exciting research!
Could you give us Alessandro's wife & children's
names (& approx birth dates) May help us locate
a census. Do you know if the family was in the
Pittsburgh area the entire time?
Thanks

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby denman922 » 18 Jun 2007, 23:17

Alessandro Adriano Froner born Levico Terme, Austria/Italy 5 June 1889
Parents are: Giovanni Batt. Froner and Guilia Ell
Came to America 1905/1906
---- married Anna Metz 11 Dec 1911 in Highland Falls,NY
---- three children born in Forest of Dean, Ft Montgomery, NY
---- moved to Millsboro/Fredericktown/Labelle, Pa 1917
---- divorce final in 1920 Anna remarried in 1926
---- wife and children are in census of 1920 under "FRONA"
---- Alessandro died February 1954 in Pittsburgh, Pa
----- interred at cavalry cemetery, unmarked

Cannot find on Alessandro Froner: Passsenger manifest, WW1 drft card, Census 1910,1920,1930

the only "on-line" doc I have on him is his WW2 Drft reg, and when he is referenced on a pass. manifest as the friend or relative in America.

I have obtained by mail his:
Certificato di Stato di Famiglia Originario
Divorce decree (1920) from Washington co., Pa. ( 28 pages with subpoenas and testimony )
State of Pennsylvania death certificate (1954) He was in the hospital for 3 1/2 months before he died, I actually located the doctor that treated him,and spoke to him on the phone, though he did not remember anything.

I visited,(May 2006) in person, the church in Highland Falls where he married my grt grandmother, also my grandmother (thier first child) was baptized in this church.
I made copies of several pages from the Marital volume and Baptismal volume.
The marriage, baptism, or funeral mass was held for several relatives of mine at this church from 1907 to 1925.

I visited his unmarked grave in Pitt. (July 2006)

A sad story, after Alessandro and Anna divorced, she remarried in 1926, and moved to Brooklyn, having a total of 12 children. 4 with Alessandro, 8 with the second husband. (I believe the second husband is somehow related to Alessandro, possibly they are cousins)

I must suppose that Alessandro stayed in the Pittsburgh area till he died. There was little or no contact over these years between him and his first wife, his children, or his brothers and sisters in Highland Falls. I am pretty confident that no family member attended his burial. Like I said, his grave is unmarked.

99% of everything I have learned about him, I learned on my own, my grandmother ( the oldest of the twelve children ) is still alive (95 yrs) and when I started asking questions about 10 yrs ago, she only had memories of him from when she was very young.

I'm sorry that I have made this a long post but, I'm new to this forum, and havn't ever posted on other forums nor have I ever consulted with other geneaologists. So, I have no idea how good I am at this.
Descendant of Rotolo of Rizziconi, Cabriel/Gabriel of Belluno(BL), Froner,Ell,Ognibeni,Moschen of Levico Terme(TN), Libardi,Avancini of Barco di Levico(TN), Bernardi of Ponte nelle Alpi(BL), Metz of Bronzolo(BZ), Bonatti of Martello (BZ),Atz of Salorno(BZ

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby vj » 19 Jun 2007, 00:01

Hey, you are outstanding at this!
Really fantastic summary :D .
Thank you for taking the time to pull all
of the details together.
Something here should give us a clue to
the missing records.
Valarie

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby vj » 19 Jun 2007, 00:15

Just for reference 1920 census (poster already has this):
Alessandro Froner's wife Anna & children
in Washington County PA after divorce.
1920 Froner census w/o Alessandro
page 2

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby Biff83 » 19 Jun 2007, 00:28

Possible 1905 manifest for Alessandro, see line 4

Year of birth about 1889
Last residence Levico
Question is what is the surname???

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/84/z ... 905tn6.jpg
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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby vj » 19 Jun 2007, 00:37

really awful looking census in Orange County, NY
1910 Froner???
Line 58
Alex?
21 years old?
Forest of Dean Mines?

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Re: A unique ancestor problem

Postby Biff83 » 19 Jun 2007, 00:37

Detainee List for same passenger, line 25

Is it Troner or Froner??
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9642/z ... 05dft9.jpg
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