I need some help

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Paul_NL
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I need some help

Postby Paul_NL » 17 Aug 2007, 17:57

Some of you might know that I am trying to apply for the Italian nationality for my girlfriend

Here in short is the case.

My girlfriends great grandfather was born around 1880 in Calabria, moved to Argentina in the late 90´s and married, got a boy and died in Argentina.

First I looked through the arrival data from Giovanni Russo coming in from 1890 to 1899. Only 9 giovanni´s were there. Only 3 came from Napoles(which is the most likely port if you are from Calabria) and 2 were in there late 30´s and 40´s. They didn´t fit the bill. The one that did was this one.

Surname
RUSSO

Name
GIOVANNI

Parentela
X

Age
14

Sex
M

Marital status
Celibe/Nubile

Occupation
JORNALERO

Religion
CATOLICA

Port of embarkment
NAPOLES

Name of the ship
ESPAGNE

Date of arrival
10-01-1897

Literacy
Non sa

Travel compartment
Terza

The mother also said he traveled with a brother and problly an uncle.

That´s why I looked into that as well

Surname
RUSSO

Name
LUIGI

Parentela
X

Age
18

Sex
M

Marital status
Celibe/Nubile

Occupation
JORNALERO

Religion
CATOLICA

Port of embarkment
NAPOLES

Name of the ship
ESPAGNE

Date of arrival
10-01-1897

Literacy
Sa

Travel compartment
Terza

Surname
RUSSO

Name
SAMUELE

Parentela
X

Age
45

Sex
M

Marital status
Sposato/a

Occupation
JORNALERO

Religion
CATOLICA

Port of embarkment
NAPOLES

Name of the ship
ESPAGNE

Date of arrival
10-01-1897

Literacy
Non sa

Travel compartment
Terza

I was and I am pretty sure that this must be the Giovanni Russo I was looking for.

I then asked www.tramital.com to look for the birth certificate, as they succesfully did it one time as well for a friend of mine

After about 5 months they located the certificate, I paid them 125 euro and I recieved it. It said he was born in 1883 in Gioia Tauro, Calabria

After that I looked for the death certificate of Giovanni Russo. At the death certificate of Giovanni Russo it says that he was married to Carmen Bustos, which he was.

The dead certificate says the following

* Juan Russo(translated first name) died in 1928 at an age of 50.
* He was Italian(which is good, because that makes the papers of the election chambre just a formality)
* His father was Vicenzo Russo and his mother Odelo Muniga Tollan(It´s not clearly written)

The birth certificate says Giovanni Russo was born in 1883 to Vicenzo Russo and Rosa Ierace

So there is a 5 year difference for the birth of Giovanni Russo. The birth Certificate says 1883 and the dead certificate says 1888. The mother´s name is different 2 times as well

So I hope someone can asnwer this questions?

1: Is it possible that in 1928 in Argentina a 55 year old man was marked a 50 year old?
2: Can the name of the mother be changed in Argentina?
3: How do they know who the mother was if the immigrant dies?
4: Where are the records kept of the immigrants father and mother if the immigrant is from Italy?
6: Are there records in Italy of people that have left the country?
7: How can you check if the birth certificate indeed is related to the death certificate?
8: At the election chambre(camera electoral) in Buenos Aires they said I now have to go to the Italian consulate and let them start a certificate that he never voted(and therefor naturalized as an Argentine). Does someone have experience with this?

And on a unrelated matter:

8: How can you look for the marriage certificate of Juan(Giovanni)Russo and Carmen Bustos. The death certificate said they were married when Juan(Giovanni) Russo died, but nobody of the family knows when. There only son was born in 1922 so it seems most likely they married before the birth of there son. You can only do a 5 year search so my guess it is that you pick 1918 to 1923.
Any thoughts on that?


Thank you very much

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Asphix
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Re: I need some help

Postby Asphix » 18 Aug 2007, 00:00

1: Is it possible that in 1928 in Argentina a 55 year old man was marked a 50 year old?
Yes, It was very common.

2: Can the name of the mother be changed in Argentina?
Yes, a lot Italian names were changed. But the names were changed to translations to native language near the original. Spanish and Portuguese sound like Italian.

3: How do they know who the mother was if the immigrant dies?
All latin american ports had immigrant registry. They had a place like immigrant hotels and immigration police. About 65% of italian immigrants were registred when they arrived.


4: Where are the records kept of the immigrants father and mother if the immigrant is from Italy?
The cities (comune) have, guard and register all birth, death, marry (after 1871). If the Italian was born before 1871 the church (catholic) did this services. You can search the italian military history sending information request to regional Distretto Militare.

6: Are there records in Italy of people that have left the country?
Yes, If they born, married, was soldier or died in Italy.


7: How can you check if the birth certificate indeed is related to the death certificate?
You need to compare with more documents or try to trust in document that is complete or older. If you want italian citzenship trust in italian documents.

8: At the election chambre(camera electoral) in Buenos Aires they said I now have to go to the Italian consulate and let them start a certificate that he never voted(and therefor naturalized as an Argentine). Does someone have experience with this?
It happen with italians who decided to be argentinian or registred yourself at italian local consulate or decided have a visa. About 90% didnt it, but you need to try everything.

And on a unrelated matter:

8: How can you look for the marriage certificate of Juan(Giovanni)Russo and Carmen Bustos. The death certificate said they were married when Juan(Giovanni) Russo died, but nobody of the family knows when. There only son was born in 1922 so it seems most likely they married before the birth of there son. You can only do a 5 year search so my guess it is that you pick 1918 to 1923.
Any thoughts on that?

I have a Carmen Bustos registry in Brazil. She was from Spain, arrived at 27/November/1905 (dd/mm/yyyy). Do you know if is she spanish?
I have a lot Giovanni Russo registry. There are 7 Giovanni Russo.

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Paul_NL
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Re: I need some help

Postby Paul_NL » 18 Aug 2007, 05:04

Asphix wrote:1: Is it possible that in 1928 in Argentina a 55 year old man was marked a 50 year old?
Yes, It was very common.

I did came to the same conclusion. How can I proof that they are indeed the same persons?

2: Can the name of the mother be changed in Argentina?
Yes, a lot Italian names were changed. But the names were changed to translations to native language near the original. Spanish and Portuguese sound like Italian.

It's not a name-change but a completly different name. Can I for example write to the commune and ask them who the wife was of Vicenzo Russo? He figures in both certificate, only the wife differs

3: How do they know who the mother was if the immigrant dies?
All latin american ports had immigrant registry. They had a place like immigrant hotels and immigration police. About 65% of italian immigrants were registred when they arrived.

Did they have to fill out the name of the mom and dad?

4: Where are the records kept of the immigrants father and mother if the immigrant is from Italy?
The cities (comune) have, guard and register all birth, death, marry (after 1871). If the Italian was born before 1871 the church (catholic) did this services. You can search the italian military history sending information request to regional Distretto Militare.

6: Are there records in Italy of people that have left the country?
Yes, If they born, married, was soldier or died in Italy.

Also of who left Italy?

7: How can you check if the birth certificate indeed is related to the death certificate?
You need to compare with more documents or try to trust in document that is complete or older. If you want italian citzenship trust in italian documents.

I trust the Italian one more then the Argentinian ones

8: At the election chambre(camera electoral) in Buenos Aires they said I now have to go to the Italian consulate and let them start a certificate that he never voted(and therefor naturalized as an Argentine). Does someone have experience with this?
It happen with italians who decided to be argentinian or registred yourself at italian local consulate or decided have a visa. About 90% didnt it, but you need to try everything.

The death certificate did say that Giovanni was Italian when he died so that option is unlikely.

You also didnt understand my question right or I didn't explain it bien.

At the election-chambre they said that they could not start the search because the documents are not in order. Therefor I need to start the procedure with the local consulate. About that I want to know a bit more


And on a unrelated matter:

8: How can you look for the marriage certificate of Juan(Giovanni)Russo and Carmen Bustos. The death certificate said they were married when Juan(Giovanni) Russo died, but nobody of the family knows when. There only son was born in 1922 so it seems most likely they married before the birth of there son. You can only do a 5 year search so my guess it is that you pick 1918 to 1923.
Any thoughts on that?

I have a Carmen Bustos registry in Brazil. She was from Spain, arrived at 27/November/1905 (dd/mm/yyyy). Do you know if is she spanish?
Yes, she was. She later married a Spanish husband. Does this change anything?

I have a lot Giovanni Russo registry. There are 7 Giovanni Russo.
I have had 9 between 1890 and 1899. Only 3 of them came from Napoles and only one had the assumed age of the great-grandfather



Thank you!!! :)

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Asphix
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Re: I need some help

Postby Asphix » 19 Aug 2007, 03:53

Paul_NL wrote:
Asphix wrote:1: Is it possible that in 1928 in Argentina a 55 year old man was marked a 50 year old?
Yes, It was very common.

I did came to the same conclusion. How can I proof that they are indeed the same persons?

:arrow: You need to trust at italian birth certificate. In Latin America we need to ask judicial authorization to change incomplete or false document information. You need to follow Italian documents.

2: Can the name of the mother be changed in Argentina?
Yes, a lot Italian names were changed. But the names were changed to translations to native language near the original. Spanish and Portuguese sound like Italian.

It's not a name-change but a completly different name. Can I for example write to the commune and ask them who the wife was of Vicenzo Russo? He figures in both certificate, only the wife differs

:arrow: You need to check if he married twice or his wife changed name. The wife doesnt matter because the jure sanguis right come from men line.

3: How do they know who the mother was if the immigrant dies?
All latin american ports had immigrant registry. They had a place like immigrant hotels and immigration police. About 65% of italian immigrants were registred when they arrived.

Did they have to fill out the name of the mom and dad?

:arrow: Probabily yes.

4: Where are the records kept of the immigrants father and mother if the immigrant is from Italy?
The cities (comune) have, guard and register all birth, death, marry (after 1871). If the Italian was born before 1871 the church (catholic) did this services. You can search the italian military history sending information request to regional Distretto Militare.

6: Are there records in Italy of people that have left the country?
Yes, If they born, married, was soldier or died in Italy.

Also of who left Italy?

:arrow: Yes, everybody who born, married or died in Italy, include the military enlistment.

7: How can you check if the birth certificate indeed is related to the death certificate?
You need to compare with more documents or try to trust in document that is complete or older. If you want italian citzenship trust in italian documents.

I trust the Italian one more then the Argentinian ones

:arrow: In Brazil we need to ask justice to correct all brazilian documents following the italian originals, I dont know how can you do it there or in Argentina.

8: At the election chambre(camera electoral) in Buenos Aires they said I now have to go to the Italian consulate and let them start a certificate that he never voted(and therefor naturalized as an Argentine). Does someone have experience with this?
It happen with italians who decided to be argentinian or registred yourself at italian local consulate or decided have a visa. About 90% didnt it, but you need to try everything.

The death certificate did say that Giovanni was Italian when he died so that option is unlikely.

You also didnt understand my question right or I didn't explain it bien.

At the election-chambre they said that they could not start the search because the documents are not in order. Therefor I need to start the procedure with the local consulate. About that I want to know a bit more


:arrow: Argentinian documents always will show "Italian" ou "Italian Naturalized" if person was born in Italia. I dont know how work Argentinian election-chambre. You could ask to consulate a document or how to get one to prove his option.

And on a unrelated matter:

8: How can you look for the marriage certificate of Juan(Giovanni)Russo and Carmen Bustos. The death certificate said they were married when Juan(Giovanni) Russo died, but nobody of the family knows when. There only son was born in 1922 so it seems most likely they married before the birth of there son. You can only do a 5 year search so my guess it is that you pick 1918 to 1923.
Any thoughts on that?

I have a Carmen Bustos registry in Brazil. She was from Spain, arrived at 27/November/1905 (dd/mm/yyyy). Do you know if is she spanish?
Yes, she was. She later married a Spanish husband. Does this change anything?

:arrow: No, dont worry.

I have a lot Giovanni Russo registry. There are 7 Giovanni Russo.
I have had 9 between 1890 and 1899. Only 3 of them came from Napoles and only one had the assumed age of the great-grandfather





:arrow: my reply

If you have trouble with spanish or portuguese language call me.

Regards!

:D

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Paul_NL
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Re: I need some help

Postby Paul_NL » 19 Aug 2007, 15:03

Asphix wrote:
Paul_NL wrote:
Asphix wrote:1: Is it possible that in 1928 in Argentina a 55 year old man was marked a 50 year old?

You need to trust at italian birth certificate. In Latin America we need to ask judicial authorization to change incomplete or false document information. You need to follow Italian documents.

Only one document(Birth certificate of Giovanni Russo) is Italian, all the others are Argentine

You need to check if he married twice or his wife changed name. The wife doesnt matter because the jure sanguis right come from men line.

So I should not worry about the name of the mother? The death certificate is correct as it says correctly to who he was married

Probabily yes.

Any way to check if the same Giovanni Russo left for Argentina?

In Brazil we need to ask justice to correct all brazilian documents following the italian originals, I dont know how can you do it there or in Argentina.

They just need apostile stamps I think

Argentinian documents always will show "Italian" ou "Italian Naturalized" if person was born in Italia. I dont know how work Argentinian election-chambre. You could ask to consulate a document or how to get one to prove his option.

I will ask an agency to get the election chambre certificate and the marriage certificate of Giovanni Russo. That are the 2 who are missing

And on a unrelated matter:

[b]8: How can you look for the marriage certificate of Juan(Giovanni)Russo and Carmen Bustos. The death certificate said they were married when Juan(Giovanni) Russo died, but nobody of the family knows when. There only son was born in 1922 so it seems most likely they married before the birth of there son. You can only do a 5 year search so my guess it is that you pick 1918 to 1923.
Any thoughts on that?


No, dont worry.

I am going to look into getting the Spanish nationality for the mother of my girlfriend(grand-child of Giovanni Russo and Carmen Bustos) but IU don´t know yet if that is possible and if it later can be passed to her children

If you have trouble with spanish or portuguese language call me.

Thanks

Regards!

You too

:D


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