Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

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Essgee
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Essgee »

Don't forget the necessity of a civil marriage and one in the "Church". Could have been married in a Church earlier, but not married in a civil ceremony. The birth record was checked for the civil marriage in the civil records, and often noted at the bottom of the birth records...therefore, the civil marriage probably took place in 1883.

If they had children prior to the civil marriage, it might have been they had a church marriage before the birth of the children. But, without the documents you cannot be sure. And in this case, you would want the church documents as well.
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BillieDeKid
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by BillieDeKid »

So you're saying that you had to be married in a civil ceremony AND a church ceremony?

Elizabeth
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Essgee »

YUP...

Actually, you HAD to have a civil ceremony to make it legal. Most Catholics would be required to have a church ceremony as well because marriage is a sacrament of the Church ...and back then, Catholic was the state religion....everyone was Catholic for the most part.

Today in Italy, you must be married in a civil ceremony. If you are a church going individual, you then are married in the religious ceremony.

In the US , a church marriage is recognized by the state as a legal marriage....the person who performs the marriage does so as a representative of the state as well as of the church...so two marriages not necessary. But the STATE issues the license, both to the couple and to the person performing the ceremony.
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by BillieDeKid »

Which one usually took place first? The church ceremony or the civil ceremony. My grandparents were married in 1908 so back then which was more likely to have taken place first?
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Essgee »

That I don't know. Guess they could have been the same day or the next day or within the same week.......need someone closer to Italy to answer this one....


This is one of those things that are interesting, but don't let it overwhelm the rest of your research. In your instance, good reason to think that there might have been a real delay between the two.

If I had to guess, I would think the Church marriage a hundred or more years ago was the "important" one...the one that really counted to the culture. The legal one, was just a convention of the state.
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by BillieDeKid »

Ok thank's for the information. I'm learning so much from everyone on the site and from reading other posts, it's just amazing.

I won't let this hinder my search. I've already found my grandparents marriage banns on one of the LDS films and alot of other interesting information about my family too. I just received my second film, which has the birth records on it, I'm anxious to get started with that one.

I'll keep reading the posts and learn from them.

Everyone here is just a wealth of information and extremely helpful.

Thanks again,

Elizabeth
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Emmy »

Thanks Suanj,Essgee,BillDeKid and all who have answered my questions here and especially Jen for allowing me to 'but in' on her post.

I have a strong feeling that what you said about the two marriages taking place - one in the church and a civil one, could be the answer to my problem.

It could be that my grandparents were married in the Church in 1879 but didnt require legally documentation of this until they had decided to come to UK. Maybe then they had the civil wedding in 1883 which was then recorded on their birth acts.

Would it have been necessary for them to have the legal documentation of their marriage to allow them to come to UK ?

Thanks Emmy
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Emmy »

I have found out there are 5 churches in Sant'Elia Fiumerapido.
On grandparents birth acts it said they were baptised in the Parocio de San Biago would this be the name of the church or the name of the 'parish' the church was in?
I know here in Scotland, re the catholic church, we have a 'Parish' which includes a large area and within that 'Parish' there are several catholic churches with different names.
Maybe I should write to all 5 churches?
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Essgee »

I would think that Parocio de San Biago is the Church you need....if it is listed on the certificate it refers to a church most likely. I know on the records I have seen, it stated the Parish of Santa Maria etc...and it indeed was the "Parish" church it referred to...

Have you checked out this site: http://www.valleluce.com/Sant'Elia%20FR.htm

It has a link at the bottom to an organization of Sant Elia F. descendents, no doubt, in Michigan. Seems like in contacting them you may come across other researchers that might have access to records as well...worth a shot. You could find someone one related to your same line! Now that would be wonderful!
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by jenalonso »

Not at all, Emmy, we all learn from everyone's situation! :)
And isn't everyone so helpful on here!? I can already see they've given you a lot of good information! I agree with Essgee. I think it's best to write directly to that particular church. Maybe include a copy of the record...

Just FYI (and this really may not even pertain to you), but I wrote to 5 churches around my great-grandparent's neighborhood & got no responses (yet). And a couple of people on here told me churches are bad at responding. But hopefully your situation is different because you have the actual record & name of the parish/church. If your info is accurate & they have the record, I don't see why they wouldn't respond. Let's hope for the best!

Good luck Emmy!!!
Searching for Nostrame, Mangiacapre, Cherubino, DiPascuale, Franco, Porto, D'Addona, DiLibero.
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by suanj »

Emmy, from what I remember of your search this was the marriage note:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1278/b ... llilt0.png

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7523 ... li1xh0.png
the name town is Caserta, meaning the province of Sant'Elia Fiumerapido, as it normally was...
so if in the marriage records don't found could be only 1 thing: the officer don't searched very well... the better thing is to see the right microfilms, and if you wish write in the church, you can, but I have some doubt abt the reply, because normally it is hard to have a reply from the churches....
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Emmy
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Emmy »

Suanj yes that is part of my grandparents marriage notation
Does that say 'Caserta 26 Febbraio' I've been struggling to make that out!
I have all the films to cover all the dates that the marriage could be but its nowhere to be found on the films. With Riccardos help I've sent letters to StatoCivile in Caserta and in Frosinone and Sant'Elia, but still no marriage document! I may just try writing to the church again.
Thank you for your help
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Emmy »

Essgee

Have you checked out this site: www.valleluce.com/Sant...a%20FR.htm
Many thanks for that link it is fantastic I've sent them an email because My grandfathers brother's family emmigrated to Michigan and I've been trying to trace that side of the family too. Just maybe lucky :wink:

Emmy
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by suanj »

Emmy: Caserta 1884 is sure.. abt 26 Feb.. i have some doubt....
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Re: Age of woman having first child in 1860's?

Post by Emmy »

Many Thanks Suanj -your a gem!
God Bless xx
Emmy
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