Question: GM's birth-marriage act

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Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby peggymckee » 14 Sep 2007, 15:55

Ciao a tutti!

I address this question especially to Italian genealogists! My GM (my father's mother) was born in 1886 and married in 1909, in her birth comune, Stazzema. On the birth record below her birth name is given as Teresa Alida Luigia Bertellotti. Her married name is given as Luigia Bertellotti.

Is this a legal name change upon marriage? My GM used "Luigia" all her life. In fact, I never knew she had these other names until I got her BC.

I need to know what Italians would consider to be her "true" first name. All her US documents and all of my father's give her first name as "Luigia". I am applying for dual citizenship. Will the Italian Consulate say her true first name is "Teresa Alida Luigia"?

I'm planning to ask them, but I've found that discussing things on this board first is often helpful. Many thanks in advance. Peggy M

Birth-marriage act of Luigia B.
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Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby wishyou » 14 Sep 2007, 21:16

Well, it all depends how the birth act was written and how who made the call wanted to be named the baby.

Anyway Stato Civile Laws explain how to consider names in birth act. More exactly it works like this:
if before the name there is the formula "dà i nomI di" (he gives the names of) is considered only the first name.
For example "dà i nomi di Antonia Maria, Elena" for italian laws only the name Antonia is considered.
if before the name there is the formula "dà il nomE di" (he gives the name of) are considered all the names before the comma.
For example "dà il nome di Antonia Maria, Elena" for italian laws is considered Antonia Maria.

In every case every name after the comma is not considered.

By birth certificate it looks like that in birth act was used the formula "he gives the name of" Teresa Alida Luigia (you see there is a voice in certificate "nomi aggiuntivi" -others names- which is not filled).
This means that the name of your GM is really Teresa Alida Luigia. In every case, if we want consider only one of these names (there is a disposition about this), should be used only Teresa as name and not Luigia.

Why in the marriage act was used Luigia? Probably a mistake. At that time they use to fill acts only with personal declaration or clerical documents, which could have this kind of errors.

Anyway I would ask to Stazzema an integral copy of the birth act (copia integrale dell'atto di nascita) of your GM to see the exact name.

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby BillieDeKid » 14 Sep 2007, 21:54

Hi wishyou -

I was just looking at your response and it is great information to know. I'm going to go back over the birth acts that I copied from the LDS films and look them over to see if this applies to any of my information. And now I know to look for this on the rest of the films.

Thank you very much.

Elizabeth

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby peggymckee » 14 Sep 2007, 22:30

wishyou wrote: I would ask to Stazzema an integral copy of the birth act (copia integrale dell'atto di nascita) of your GM to see the exact name.

I have an integral copy of the birth act (from LDS microfilm). It says: "dà il nomE di Teresa Alida Luigia" (no commas).

I know that my grandmother used the name "Luigia" all her life and was never known by any other. I will have another look at the microfilms tomorrow. I didn't look all that closely at the banns & marriage act. Now I want to get photocopies of them.

Many thanks for your informative answer! Peggy M
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby suanj » 15 Sep 2007, 06:40

in Italy, when a person have more first names, the important for to understand a birthact, is to see if in the first names are the comma/s (,); because the comma/s decide the main first name, so in the case of your ancestor the first name complete is Teresa Alida Luigia and no comma; so in all italian official documents, it was this name and she had making the signature: BERTELLOTTI Teresa Alida Luigia.

instead if it was Teresa, Alida, Luigia the main first name was Teresa and she making BERTELLOTTI Teresa and it was enough for signature validity... in your case, I believe no big problem because the birth and marriage act are right, so the problem is for USA documents, but in any case the problem is little because it are only a part of her complete first name, regards, suanj
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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby peggymckee » 15 Sep 2007, 12:06

Dear SuanJ--

On all my grandmother's (my father's mother) US documents, she uses the name Luigia only. On all US documents used "Luigia", never "Teresa Alida Luigia." Luigia was born in 1886 and died in 1951.

Here is my question. My father, born in the US, does not have a US civil birth act. He has baptismal certificate only. I want to file a delayed civil birth act for him. The Consulate requires it for dual Italian-US citizenship. They will not accept the baptismal certificate.

What name should I use for my father's mother--"Luigia" or "Teresa Alida Luigia"? Even the baptismal certificate gives my father's mother's name as "Luigia". Also father's mother naturalized under the name "Luigia" not "Teresa Alida Luigia".

Any insight is very welcome. All the best, Peggy M
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby wishyou » 15 Sep 2007, 12:22

For Italy you suppose to use Teresa Alida Luigia.

But I think It will make some kind of confusion, even if you make a declaration act in which you say that Luigia and Teresa Alida Luigia is the same person.
I think it's better you ask to the Consulate. They in charge to accept papers, so I suppose that they know what they want.....

P.s.: in 1984 I review all the names of the people resident in my town (30.000 persons) matching Stato Civile birth act with Anagrafe's documents fot the town hall. I used the rules over indicated as the Ministero di Grazia e Giustizia told in a document edited in that period (da il nome, da i nomi, comma, etc.). I found a lot of missunderstanding, erros and "modification" made by persons which didn't like the name (for example a woman has declared in Anagrafe her name to be "Anna", but in truth her name was "Maria". She told me she changed because she didn't like Maria. So in the birth act the name was Maria, but in passport, ID card, driving licence, etc. the name was Anna. She had to change all this documents).

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby peggymckee » 15 Sep 2007, 12:41

Dear Wishyou--

Yes, I will ask the Consulate. It is essential to find out what they think. I'm trying to find out as much as I can before I ask them.

Your response is extremely helpful. It explains to me why the Consulate asks for documents to be amended. Amending documents is not very common in the US--although I think it will become more common as document requirements get more strict.

Again many thanks for your help! Peggy M
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby suanj » 15 Sep 2007, 13:22

peggymckee wrote:Dear SuanJ--

On all my grandmother's (my father's mother) US documents, she uses the name Luigia only. On all US documents used "Luigia", never "Teresa Alida Luigia." Luigia was born in 1886 and died in 1951.

Here is my question. My father, born in the US, does not have a US civil birth act. He has baptismal certificate only. I want to file a delayed civil birth act for him. The Consulate requires it for dual Italian-US citizenship. They will not accept the baptismal certificate.

What name should I use for my father's mother--"Luigia" or "Teresa Alida Luigia"? Even the baptismal certificate gives my father's mother's name as "Luigia". Also father's mother naturalized under the name "Luigia" not "Teresa Alida Luigia".

Any insight is very welcome. All the best, Peggy M


as it is possible that you have not the civil birthact of your father....it is strange.... abt Luigia... asking in the consulate, sure you can have a right help... regards, suanj
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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby peggymckee » 15 Sep 2007, 16:30

Dear SuanJ--

From the Italian perspective, it is strange (even impossible) that my father has no civil birth act.

From the US perspective, it is very common for people of my father's generation. My father's parents came to the US in 1915, spoke no English, lived in a completely Italian speaking community in Chicago. My father was born in 1916. It is not surprising to me at all that they did not know that they should register his birth--or perhaps they wanted to, but couldn't explain their desire.

I always knew that my father did not have a civil birth certificate and in the US he did not need one. His baptismal certificate was an acceptable substitute. I have it. My father used it to establish his US citizenship when he applied for a US passport. But the Italian Consulate will not accept it.

Anyhow, I am getting a real education in cultural differences trying to get my grandparents' paperwork sorted out!

Many thanks to all for your help & insights. Peggy M
Surnames: Bertellotti - Ridolfi - Marchi

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Re: Question: GM's birth-marriage act

Postby suanj » 15 Sep 2007, 19:35

oh I understand.. and it is hard for you... big problem... regards, suanj
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