Italian military

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Italian military

Postby Sirena » 19 Jul 2008, 16:05

I don't know much about Italian military history. My GF was born in 1889 and said he fought in the Italian army in Tripoli. I thought that was WW2. What was going on in the early 1900's there? I appreciate any insight you may have....also, how could I find Italian military records? He was born in Pico, provincia di Frosinone. Thank you.

PS He was already in the US during WWI.
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Re: Italian military

Postby wishyou » 20 Jul 2008, 20:30

Italy fought a war with the Ottman Empire in 1912. Winning that war Italy obtained Rodi's Islands (Dodecanneso) and Lybia.
So he probably fought in that war.
For the military records you have to ask to the Archivio di Stato of Frosinone
http://www.archivi.beniculturali.it/ASFR
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Re: Italian military

Postby Sirena » 20 Jul 2008, 21:35

Thank you so much, Wishyou.
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Re: Italian military

Postby Sirena » 10 Sep 2008, 00:54

Is it normal to wait 6 weeks for a response to an email written in Italian re: the military records?
I wasn't sure if they would email the document, respond that there was a fee to send or if the document would come by regular mail.
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Re: Italian military

Postby PeterTimber » 10 Sep 2008, 02:59

Dear Sirena when writing for the provincial military records request his discharge records (FOGLIO DI CONGEDO ILLIMITATO) which will all his vitals, education, transfers, campaigns, medals and wounds (if any). This will give you as much information as possible.

The provincial military record custodians will no doubrt send you appropriate information relating to fees and methods of transmission. If this is their procedure it is obviously a secondary consideration wouldn't you say? =Peter=
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Re: Italian military

Postby Sirena » 10 Sep 2008, 10:13

Thank you, Peter. I haven't heard anything from them at all since the end of July. I'll do what you suggested.
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Re: Italian military

Postby PeterTimber » 10 Sep 2008, 12:16

I donot want to overlook the obvious and not mention that if you don't hear anything this week then I would write to inquire when you may expect to receive the records. Perhaps an e-mail might do the trick. =Peter=
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Re: Italian military

Postby ricbru » 10 Sep 2008, 14:14

Peter,
sorry if I correct you, Foglio di Congedo Illimitato (discharge paper) states name of soldier, date and place of birth, when discharged.

http://images.google.it/images?sourceid ... a=N&tab=wi

Foglio matricolare (military record) states his vitals, education, transfers, campaigns, medals and wounds (if any).

http://uploads.trovanome.it/latassa.it/ ... 673064.JPG

http://www.peruzzetto.org/Caduti_di_gue ... zzetto.jpg

I hope it helps
bye Riccardo
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Re: Italian military

Postby PeterTimber » 10 Sep 2008, 14:27

Dear Ricbru the FHL study of Military records says the contrary to what you are stating..

The The registro Dei Foglie Martricolari details military service including such items as promotions while the Discharge papers (Foglio di Congedo Illimitato) contains the most complete information of all down to campaigns, medals and wounds. The Conscription records and service records (registro di ruolo) contain less information.

Until I have alternative documentation inprint from another respected authority, I cannot accept your conclusions not out of any respect for you personally but for the information you provided. =Peter=
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Re: Italian military

Postby ricbru » 10 Sep 2008, 14:45

Peter,
I'm sorry
I did the compulsory military service in Italy, and I know what there is written on the discharging paper and on the military record.
I'm sorry to tell you that what FHL states it wrong.
I'm not here to discuss, but as a volunteer of Italiangenealogy what I tell you is true. I'm here to help people to understand what infos can be found on foglio matricolare and what infos can be found on foglio di congedo illimitato
Just FHL infos are the other way around, and you can see it on the papers/images you find on the web
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Re: Italian military

Postby PeterTimber » 10 Sep 2008, 17:00

Images and my and your interpretationof the documents and records are totally not acceptable since these determinations on your part or even my part are subjective but since they are a 3rd party determination and by a much respected organization, The Mormon Church Family History Library in Salt Lake City Utah I have no reason not to believe that this FHL review of the Italian Military record system is other than correct.

Accordingly, I have no problem with an accepted 3rd party (FHL) review and accept it totally until such time as the matter is resolved to your satisfaction (I have no problem with FHL) and my discovering that the FHL findings are not correct, I will continue to have faith in the FHL findings of what constitutes Italian Military records.

I will continue to be orthodox in my explanations concerning Military records as discussed by the FHL.

I do hope you accept this in the context of Intellectual ferment and take it personally. =Peter=.
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Re: Italian military

Postby nuccia » 10 Sep 2008, 17:41

Just a couple of links to look through..

http://www.italiamerica.org/id132.htm

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/italian_to_en ... olare.html

Now, on a side note..

This is my grandfather's Foglio matricolare

http://www.gentedimareitaliangenealogy. ... ecords.jpg

And this is the letter I wrote to get that information:

La sottoscritta _____ residente a ______ con la presente chiede di poter avere copia integrale della lista di leva del prozio


ANGILLETTA ENRICO figlio di ROCCO
Soldato 142esimo Reggimento Fanteria, nato il 27 Agosto 1889 ad Ardore

Inoltre chiede di poter ricevere copia della lista di leva e del foglio matricolare di mio nonno

ANGILLETTA Francesco Bruno figlio di Rocco
in Ardore.....il 23 Marzo 1895


In attesa di cordiale riscontro si porgono distinti saluti

Hope this helps a bit.
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Re: Italian military

Postby PeterTimber » 10 Sep 2008, 18:12

Dear Ricbru I just got off the telephone with the Mormon church European section in Salt Lake City and they reaffirmed the correctness of their rendition of Italy Military Records which appears in my copy and their copy of Research Italy.

Accordingly I will advise persons of this fact when discussing military matters of genealogical consequences. =Peter=
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Re: Italian military

Postby PeterTimber » 10 Sep 2008, 18:29

Dear Nuccia the crux of the discussion is the FOGLIO DI CONGEDO ILLIMITATO (Discharge records) which contains all the information in the registro di leva (conscription records) and......

The records also give information regaridng the date and place of draft, length of service, transfers, campaigns, medals, and wounds. One copy is given to the soldier and one copy is kept in his file.


I am going by this description which was telephonically confirmed to me today by the European section of the FHL in Salt Lake City Utah, =Peter=
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Re: Italian military

Postby nuccia » 10 Sep 2008, 20:50

PeterTimber wrote:Dear Nuccia the crux of the discussion is the FOGLIO DI CONGEDO ILLIMITATO (Discharge records) which contains all the information in the registro di leva (conscription records) and......

The records also give information regaridng the date and place of draft, length of service, transfers, campaigns, medals, and wounds. One copy is given to the soldier and one copy is kept in his file.


I am going by this description which was telephonically confirmed to me today by the European section of the FHL in Salt Lake City Utah, =Peter=


Hi Peter!

Maybe this will help?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... mitato.jpg

And this explanation is from a military forum:

Il Congedo illimitato e' un documento che attesta il tuo servizio militare svolto.
Una volta finito il Vfp1 (oppure vfp4-vfb,dipende da cosa sei)ti sara' consegnato questo foglio con scritto l'inizio del servizio,incarico e grado rivestito.
sul retro del foglio ci sono scritte tutte le regole del militare in congedo (quasi tutte non piu' valide con la fine della Leva)...cmq la regola base e' che il congedato appartiene cmq alle Forze Armate,ed in caso di conflitto armato puo' essere richiamato alle armi


and from Trafford Cole's book, Italian Genealogical Records

http://books.google.ca/books?id=i_qgMMO ... &ct=result

Two totally different documents, yes but they both do have some of the same information on them. It looks like they all have a description of the solider (vital information such as name, place of birth and identifying information) but the foglio matricolare seems to have the complete record of service.

By the way, good topic... :)
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